Kasama

Non-dogmatic…fiercely revolutionary

Linc and Me: On the Material Basis of Incorrect ideas

Posted by Mike E on February 28, 2008

mine.jpgby Mike Ely

In an earlier post I wrote:

“Ray Lotta once urged me (as we were working on a polemic together) to “Struggle harder to understand the material basis for incorrect ideas.” And I found that startling at the time — since it was so different from my previous method, which was to assume that people with incorrect ideas “must be” simply ignoring the ‘basic facts’ of any situation.”

Paper tigers responded to this:

“Can you maybe expand and elaborate on that comment? How can we ‘Struggle harder to understand the material basis for incorrect ideas.’?”

OK.

* * * * *

First a self-critical note: I have at times looked at wrong ideas (of many kinds) as if they were just a matter of not having enough of the right information. As if wrong ideas and summations about complex things are mainly a result of ignorance, and the “solution” to wrong ideas is simply a “download” of revealing information.

Among Maoists, we often talk about the “contradiction between ignorance and knowledge,” and “the contradiction between correct and incorrect” — and in my earlier view, I conflated (confused and combined) the two.

Let me give you a personal example that changed my life:

In the 1970s, I worked at one of the few coal mines in West Virginia that was heavily African American. It was a time when (almost universally) in the U.S., Black people were on the cutting edge of struggle against racism and the larger system, and where (like today) the political consciousness of Black people was often far ahead of the understanding of white people. In the West Virginia coalfields, the sixties had produced a raging firestorm of struggle — as literally thousands of illegal wildcat strikes broke out against all kinds of injustices large and small. And as communists, we were seeking to unite with the miners and the struggle they were waging, while working to connect that struggle to the larger radical upsurge in the U.S. — we had the intention of swinging a section of coal miners into the revolutionary movement if the possibility of overthrowing the system emerged.

One of the many paradoxes of the situation was that, in West Virginia, the backbone of the wildcat strike movements was overwhelmingly among white miners. And the mines that were heavily Black struck much less often, and were much less willing to walk out in support of the grievances of others. In fact, when strikes spread through the coalfields, it was often necessary for the militant active miners to keep picket lines as at the racially mixed mines, because there was a greater tendency for the workers there to return to work (or even slip in to scab). This was especially true of the mine I worked at, where many of the workers had a reputation of being opposed to wildcats and a bit attached to the company that owned the mine. This seemed extremely odd to me (and to the other communists) who came from a movement where it had sometimes been assumed that “Black Workers Take the Lead.”

Part of my experience there, over almost ten years, was coming to understand what this was all about.

I worked with an older Black worker, Linc’, who was rather remarkably “backward” (or so it seemed to me). He was, over and over, opposed to taking unified stands, on the job or over larger issues. He “yessired” the foreman in a way that seemed slavish to me. And so on… (you get the picture). And my response, as a young communist about twenty years old was to “struggle” with him, over and over — in a way that started to escalate (on my side). I argued about how people were being fucked over, and the importance of solidarity, and the nature of this exploitative system, and the importance of the struggles that had arisen worldwide, and the urgency of fighting against the attacks on Black Lung Benefits, and supporting the militants of other mines who were being thrown in jail for leading strikes, and so on…. And Linc’, in his good natured way, was unmoved. And i got a bit bitter about it, starting to openly tease him for being a “suck.”

Then one night, late on a Saturday, a car drove up the holler, and pulled in front of my house. These were tense times, and I went out to check. There was Linc, sitting behind the steering wheel. Waiting on me. “Jump in,” he said. And we started driving, and he started talking (really talking) for the first time since I had known him. Perhaps it was the one of the first real heart-to-heart talk I had ever experienced in all the “political work” i had been “doing.”

He started off very simply, saying “You think I don’t know they fuck us over…..” And then he said, “Let me tell you about my life.”

And he described what it was like growing up as a Black man in this corner of West Virginia. How Black people had been worked like dogs in the mines and coking ovens. And then, when World War 2 was over, and the railroads switched to diesel, the coal market had crashed, and a third of miners laid off (during a blizzard of mechanization). And how the companies had preached that Black men couldn’t run the new equipment, just weren’t up to it, and how Black miners were laid off in huge numbers across the coalfields. Linc had been forced out, as a young man, trying first to survive as a numbers runner in the rackets of a nearby town (which was famous for gambling and prostitution). And how he had gotten caught up there in some bad shit and fled to Washington DC. And then he described what it was like to be a penniless Black man in that notoriously racist Southern Jim Crow capital — how he had gone without until he got a job as a doorman and bouncer. How he had bottomed out on booze, and all the bullshit.

To survive he had come back, and found there was only a thin strip of mines that hired Black — concentrated in U.S. Steel’s Gary Holler and a few other mines. Getting in was desperate. Holding on to the job was vital. White miners were jumping from mine to mine in the 70s, as all kinds of hiring went on, and as they tried to find themselves the best situation. But for older Black miners like Linc — it was here or nowhere. And then he started in on the strike movement (which we communists were totally infatuated with, and preoccupied with day and night!), and talked about in the waves of strikes some issues were treated as a huge deal, and others were not. He talked about how the young men wanted to strike just cause going to work was so unbearable, while the older men (like him) had different needs and pulls. He talked about the larger question of where it was all headed, and whether we could see an outcome from a thousand bee-sting actions carried out mine by mine.

As all this went on, and as I listened, I was pretty stunned. Really. Because all the lecturing and agitating I had done, about the discrimination of this system, and the oppressive nature of capitalism and these companies, etc. were really not news to him. Those things were written deep in the bitterness of his life.

He didn’t “love the oppressor.” He wasn’t oblivious to the fact that they ground everyone down and discarded people like garbage. He was not unaware of the acute antagonism of class society — and he was not confused about which class he was in (or what he was assigned to because of the color of his skin).

Now, when all is said and done, Linc did had some deep-seated views and summations that we would have to insist were “wrong.” He was into looking out for himself. He had concluded that you couldn’t beat “them” — at least not easily or quickly. And he had decided (long ago) to keep a low profile, and put personal survival first.

But, when I climbed out of that car, it was with a real appreciation that his views were not rooted in some simple “ignorance” (a lack of knowledge) about all the things I would rap about. Many things we communists raised WERE new to people — many people did not know much about the revolutionaries of Vietnam, or the GI resistance movement, or the unities that had been built between radical students and Black militants, or the fact that there were socialist countries where people were liberated… There were things that had been kept from people, including Linc. And there were many ways that the wider world and the “larger questions” were supposed to forbidden territory for the often-barely-literate workers of these mines.

But Linc’s wrong views were really not rooted in simple ignorance of “facts,” but in a particular summation of very real things — of very real contradictions and experiences. He was not a “blank slate” waiting to be filled with the “good news” that I was bringing — he was a grown man, who had lived a full and eventful life, and who had views (about religion, class struggle, white people, coal operators, and much more) that were rooted in those experiences.

In other words, there was a material basis for the things he believed — even the things that were “wrong” on the larger scale of things (seen from the overall). He was backward, he was opposed to collective struggle, he was (viewed from the outside at least) unmoved by the idea of fighting for a radically new and liberated world.

And then, he also unveiled for me a little bit about what had been going on among the older Black workers — including their debates about me. My wife and I were, after all, the only communists in that county, and the only communists anyone had ever met. And so there was quite a bit of curiousity and heated conversation after we “showed up” bringing that radical breath of the 60s with us.

For years, this pig company had tried to trap me and fire me, always failing — but what I had not understood was the unseen layers of what went down… how many of these older Black workers (who came from a pretty tightly knit community of folks) had pressured the local union’s officials not to allow me to be “set up,” how they had passed on word to me about dangers, how they had argued (unknown to me) with some rock-hard reactionary patriotic types among the workers who were arguing that the radicals should simple be run off.

I had seen some of this, but not SEEN it.

To put it another way, my own “incorrect ideas” (about Linc, and a whole section of workers like him) has been rooted in some material reality (what i had “seen”) but there was a whole lot more I had not been seeing, and there were ways I “put it together” that did not correspond with the real and objective relationship between the “facts” i was analyzing.

I’m simplifying all this somewhat, obviously, and using this personal experience to make a larger point.

To connect with people, you have to learn from them. To help transform people’s thinking, you have to understand that thinking. We can’t look at people like they are “empty vessels” waiting to be filled (or blank paper waiting for our brush). In fact it should perhaps be pretty obvious (even if it wasn’t to me as a twenty-something radical activist!) that people at all levels of society have complex ideas rooted in real experiences — not just their own experiences, but broad experiences of events in society (wars, layoffs, years of exploitation, defeat in struggle, racist divisions, on and on.) And without understanding the material basis for their existing ideas — without actually treating people as thoughtful — it was really not possible to very creatively dig into alternative ways of looking at reality (including alternative ways of summing up their own experience).

For me, it has been a process learning this. Because just a few years later, it was still a revelation for me when Ray put this insight into words — when he criticized me for writing a polemic as if people held the wrong line because they didn’t “have the facts.” He said that I had to word harder to understand the “material basis for the incorrect ideas” i was criticizing — that I should dig into what our opponents were “seeing” and describing, and work to draw an alternative (and hopefully more correct) interpretation that encompassed those facts, and yet refuted those arguments.

In reality, people often hold wrong views because they assemble “the facts” differently — into different constructs and theories about how those “facts” interrelate, how causality works, and what conditions what.

So anyway, that is what I mean by the “material basis for incorrect ideas” — and the importance of “what people are seeing and responding to” when they firmly hold views that we might not understand or agree with. This is part of the thinkig that lay behind my criticism of Avakian’s superficial and rather deliberately disrespectful view of religion among the people — because it starts from the simple place of “there is no god, so no basis for religion but the indoctrination of the enemy.” When in fact the roots of belief are complex and deep and contradictory (even though there is, in reality, no god!)

It is similar now on a different scale, where so many progressive people are “chomskied out” — where they have all kinds of “facts” about how fucked up things are, but don’t leap from there to a hopeful and energetic engagement with revolutionary change. It’s not that they “don’t know” — and that they need more “exposure” of how fucked the system is, or how resistant it has been to reform…. The “problem” is that we need to grapple together with people over the way they have assembled those “facts” into a particular worldview (one that often sees no place for an alternative future.)

I often think of Linc (and his brother Pete) and many dozens of miners of their generation who I learned a great deal from — who i assume are all long dead now. And I think of them in connection with one of my favorite quotes from Mao on the mass line:

“The masses are the real heroes, while we ourselves are often childish and ignorant, and without this understanding, it is impossible to acquire even the most rudimentary knowledge.”

22 Responses to “Linc and Me: On the Material Basis of Incorrect ideas”

  1. paper tigers said

    Thank you so much for this beautiful and moving story. Like your writing about religion it allowed me to not only understand people in a much deeper way, but to understand myself as well.

  2. Matigari said

    I agree with PaperTiger that this essay was very moving. It fit in well with my life-experience as a whole & not simply my experience doing revolutionary work. I mainly agree with what Mike said:

    “It is similar now on a different scale, where so many progressive people are “chomskied out”—where they have all kinds of “facts” about how fucked up things are, but don’t leap from there to a hopeful & energetic engagement with revolutionary change. It’s not that they “don’t know”—& that they need more “exposure” of how fucked the system is, or how resistant it has been to reform…The “problem” is that we need to grapple together with people over the way they have assembled those “facts” into a particular worldview (one that often sees no place for an alternative future.)

    However, I would like to add another part of the picture, one that has to do with Lenin’s remark about how in non-revolutionary times, the masses allow themselves to be “uncomplainingly” robbed. Going through the security check points at the airport always makes Lenin’s remark jump out at me as I sense the seething rage that many people have about what is happening, especially when we make eye-contact. True, not everyone in those security queues is outraged but so many are. Yet, we go through their mazes “uncomplainingly.” Why? For the simple reason that given the current conditions, there is simply no chance for the situation to change & all that’s going to happen if you raise a stink is that you will face a monster-size hassle with Homeland Security & no doubt miss your flight.

    True, there is the “ ‘problem’… over the way they have assembled those ‘facts’ into a particular worldview (one that often sees no place for an alternative future)” but there is another issue for people who actually hope for an alternative future—that the cost of “stepping out” right now is simply not commensurate with the gains that might be won if they did, that it would be a hollow sacrifice. This is a tough nut to deal with. Growing up in poverty & surrounded by neighbors who were all in the same boat & fighting on the same side—not everyone but most anyway—it was relatively easy for me to open my mouth & call shit out. Hell, I learned that from a lot of people, some of whom had been in the Communist Party. But I could feel the shifts taking place as I grew older, when people were getting jobs that paid enough for them to buy a house & get in on the good life. And that had a real drag on their political activity. It wasn’t that they didn’t want a different future but that stepping out now meant maybe losing your high-paying job, losing your home, messing up the good life you fought so hard to get for your kids. So that posed another problem, one that persists to this day, though I think things are changing back to what I knew as a child—where a tiny can of sardines shared with 3 or 4 other people was a special treat.

    For Linc to step out would have been extremely costly, much more so than for the white communists in the mines, which is not to say that it was a picnic for them. This doesn’t we shouldn’t struggle with people to take stands but it is to say that they are not stupid or that they don’t know shit. In a way, they know too much shit, so to speak—their familiarity with the strength of the bourgeoisie acts as a heavy weight, dragging people down & away from political struggle. I feel this kind of thing in people I meet today—the heavy weight of the reversals in Russia & China as well as the failure of the Iranian revolution & of Vietnam—& this is among those who still openly wish for a different future than what capitalism has to offer.

    Their assessment of conditions, however, is a matter of struggle— but then, so is ours!! How often have we called them into battle when conditions were not favorable at all? How often have we waged campaigns that ran counter to the possibility of transforming objective situations & making them more favorable? Which is not to say that we should only do things when we have a good chance of winning immediately. The Paris Commune was still beautiful, though it was ill-advised, didn’t last long & went down in a bloody defeat! But still, we need to understand the pulls on people.

    Another thing that Lenin said that I really liked is his remark about how valuable & precious the kopeks of the workers are, in a crucial way, but not all ways, even more so than the rubles of the intellectuals. Lenin appreciated what their kopeks meant in their lives. He really understood that when those on the bottom stand up, they sacrifice greatly. I’ve lost count of the many times I’ve been brought to tears when welfare mothers would scrounge around their apartments trying to scrape whatever they could find to support whatever battle I happened to be calling on people to take up. There was a very moving incident where a prostitute asked me for a leaflet I was passing out & absolutely insisted that I come back after a few hours so she could turn some tricks & donate the money. Heart-breaking! I couldn’t stop her! She wanted so badly to be part of the fight.

    One final note, this time on Lotta’s remark,

    Struggle harder to understand the material basis for incorrect ideas.

    It can be taken as a moral imperative or a good psychological point about how to deal with contradictions among the people, or even as something to bear in mind in assessing the bourgeoisie & its policy makers—the material basis of the incorrect ideas of our enemies is sometimes very important for grasping their strengths & their weaknesses. But also, the bourgeoisie needs some truth in order to carry out its con jobs—every con begins with some truth.

    It is more than all this, however, because it is rooted in the very nature of scientific knowledge & understanding about the world. Lenin sums up this point beautifully in his little tract, “On the Question of Dialectics”:

    “Human knowledge is not (or does not follow) a straight line, but a curve, which endlessly approximates a series of circles, a spiral. Any fragment, segment, section of this curve can be transformed (transformed one-sidedly) into an independent, complete, straight line [a tangent], which then (if one does not see the wood for the trees) leads into the quagmire, into clerical obscurantism (where it is anchored by the class interests of the ruling classes). Rectilinearity & one-sidedness, woodenness & petrification, subjectivism & subjective blindness—voilà the epistemological roots of idealism. And clerical obscurantism (= philosophical idealism), of course, has epistemological roots, it is not groundless; it is a sterile flower undoubtedly, but a sterile flower that grows on the living tree of living, fertile, genuine, powerful, omnipotent, objective, absolute human knowledge.”

    In a first approximation, I think of it in terms of a spiral with a straight lines that “kisses” the spiral at a single point (a tangent). (The phrase “Going off on a tangent” which is used to describe departure from a central topic is appropriate in this picture.) The single point where the tangent line meets the spiral is the “kernel of truth” that an error is based on. When struggling with friends, it is important to grasp their kernel of truth, even when you think they are mainly in error. (My 2nd approximation will be deferred to a later discussion.)

    This is Marx’s method in relation to Hegel:

    “The mystification which dialectics suffers in Hegel’s hands, by no means prevents him from being the first to present its general form of working in a comprehensive & conscious manner. With him it is standing on its head. It must be turned right side up again, if you would discover the rational kernel within the mystical shell.” Capital, Vol. I, International Pub., New York (7th printing, 1975), p. 19.

    Is is fundamental to revolutionary methodology.

  3. Jaroslav said

    Not to ‘go off on a tangent’ but: Mike, have you read the book Union Dues by John Sayles? I thought it was excellent, but you have more familiarity with the subject matter.

    In response to Matigari’s post, does anyone here want to volunteer to make a video animation, or series of diagrams at least, for illustrate all this stuff about spirals & conjunctures & whatnot? I think I have some degree understanding of it, but honestly it’s often hard to visualise exactly what’s being proposed & debated.

    Anyway, on the main topic, Mike your article here is just completely awesome, very helpful & cuts through a lot of bullshit put out both by the bourgeoisie & by honest-but-misguided revolutionaries. I humbly submit that this relates to the point I’ve brought up a few times about the need for long-term work amongst particular social groups. And a re-evaluation of how to assess the ‘advanced/intermediate/backwards’ in relation to revolution (not just a current struggle), which is also related to the universality-particularity contradiction that Mao talked about. It has also been my personal experience that some folks who are inactive — or who are active only in ‘acceptable’ ways like mainstream unions etc — often have a better overall grasp of the picture, including the knowledge that it will take revolution to truly change things for the better & this is what they want. This is not a linear or one-to-one relationship at all, & obviously when somebody steps forward to rebel sooner rather than later, this is a great thing, which should be encouraged (y’know, short of adventurism anyway). But oftentimes the more ‘active’ individuals will come & go, not being truly convinced of the need or desire for revolution (which doesn’t make their contributions any less valuable); in fact many of these types become active because they become shocked at the newly-discovered (to them) horrors of the system. And what else should one expect, when one’s work is centred around exposure of current events, rather than real deep analysis & strategy for revolution?

    Again, to be clear, these two different types (presently ‘active’ vs ‘inactive’) are non-antagonistic contradiction. Mao said ‘difference is contraction’. But it’s not always antagonistic. We do need to recognise the difference, note that it is a contradiction, find which is the primary aspect, which aspect should be concentrated on as the more strategically beneficial for revolution & so on. This is actually the sense I got in reading some passages in older articles in Revolution magazine which talk about mutual reinforcement of a more underground (less openly ‘active’) class-conscious proletarian movement & the mainly petit-bourgeois movement, that at key junctures for example the proletarians could be mobilised to take the ‘publicly active’ movement to a new level & more revolutionary direction. Today BA still mentions this in passing with a more eclectic spin to it, but it rings hollow because RCPUSA doesn’t have real strong amongst either section.

    Another thing is the issue of ‘party vs masses’. The party & its cadre are often viewed as separate from the masses, essentially as ‘activists’ albeit ‘communist activists’. This contributes to the influence of petit-bourgeois tendencies — including get-rich-quick schemes, impatience, & lack of big-picture view of revolutionary strategy — because the publicly active protest movements under capitalism are usually petit-bourgeois, having as they do both reason & freedom to protest. This is not to be mechanical &/or reductionist, rather an overall view on the class dynamics of things (unless we are to ‘new-synthesise’ class analysis out of our theoretical arsenal). Also, it’s just weird. Aren’t I a ‘masses’? Don’t I have to slave for the man like everyone else? Am I not subject to repressive State apparatus not only for being a communist but also for my social status as well? Do I not also possess human DNA? In my view the party is — or should be anyway — the vanguard, the advanced leading section of the masses (not ‘for’ them). This seemingly small lexical distinction makes a world of difference.

  4. SS said

    Good article, good discussion!

    I’m having a little trouble conceptualizing what exactly this looks like.

    “He said that I had to word harder to understand the “material basis for the incorrect ideas” i was criticizing — that I should dig into what our opponents were “seeing” and describing, and work to draw an alternative (and hopefully more correct) interpretation that encompassed those facts, and yet refuted those arguments.”

    I understand the idea in theory but the practical application is still escaping me.

    I’ve been struggling a lot with the Obama phenomena recently. He’s very popular among young people, and I can see the appeal. He represents ‘change’, hope, his website outwardly appears to be very progressive and attractive to the left. And hey let’s face it, he does have a great smile. But when you look into the stuff he is saying, and the actual program he represents it’s easy to expose. But I keep getting this sinking feeling that it’s not enough, but I can’t seem to make the leap beyond just saying “this, this and that is wrong.” Part of it is my own disconnect from the people who will vote for him this coming election (I often find myself having to do research to find out what people are saying about him), but there is something else that’s missing. And I can’t seem to make the leap to that and present a really well rounded argument.

    Can anyone give me some specific examples of the change in thinking that leads to the sort of argument that Mike is talking about here? Spell it out for me!

  5. tellnolies said

    I think the Obama phenomena is actually the best place to think through the implications of understanding the material basis of incorrect ideas. Almost everything I’ve read from the revolutionary left, including stuff on this site, has rung hollow to me in its failure to really grasp the significance of the Obama campaign. The critiques of Obama are like the RCP’s critiques of religion — true as far as they go, but on a much deeper level failing to grasp why masses are rallying to him this way. “Exposing” Obama’s complicity with US imperialism will be about as effective as “exposing” the logical fallacies of the Bible.

    If, as Mike has argued, the base of the Democratic Party consists largely of the very sectors of society we need to win to revolutionary politics, we need to get a lot more serious about understanding the struggles that are waged in and around the Democratic Party. Treating the Obama campiagn like every other progressive Dems primary campiagn is a mistake. It must be understood in its particularity. But that means going beyond compiling telling quotes from Obama or regurgitating simplistic analyses of how the Dems trick the masses that could just as easily have been published in any previous leap year.

  6. redflags said

    On Obama – I’d take it even further. Red state/Blue state America strikes me in its broad overviews like an election of “our boss” against “their boss.”

    Seriously, look at the folks on the the Democratic and Republican stages… and they look like your boss if you’re from the coasts or Chicago (centers of finance capital) and like “their boss” for the folks from Texas and Mississippi.

    Those tens of millions of culturally reactionary poor-to-middle class whites who line up for the Republicans… those people aren’t our enemies even if we (culturally) don’t get along with them.

    Call it false consciousness or whatever, but it’s not just that we need to cut people away from (an entirely understandable) identification with the Democrats. We do, and will. But it’s bigger than that. Americans are actually breaking in substantial numbers with simple “party” politics. Definitely in terms of active involvement. The old “clubs” and so on.

    West Virginia votes for the Republicans. And Arkansas and Kentucky and much of the South. But that’s not a consensus. New winds are blowing demographically and, soon, politically. Immigration, a genuine turn away from the older forms of raw white supremacy.

    But the Ron Paul phenom of liberatarian (right-wing) anti-imperialism, which it is, should be serious food for thought that the Dems aren’t the only game in town (even if we are overwhelmingly from the Blue State cultural fabric.

    I think here of Germany’s divide between the (post)Lutheran North and the (post)Catholic South…

    But yes, we need not just a way of making sense of Obama – but of engaging the coming election to point to a liberating future of life after America (as we have known it) and not just for a blank “all the way” rhetoric of revolutionary imperative.

    People are in motion even if they don’t know where they are going.

  7. Pavel said

    I agree that the Obama phenomenon needs to be examined carefully. It has to be said, of course, that he wants to leave bombing Iran on the table as well as attacks on the Pakistani border; that he’s kissing the Israel lobby’s ass with his comment about not negotiating with Hamas; that he’s basically just another politician. It also should be noted that a lot of people within the category of those who see participation in elections as basic “good citizenship” (this being the vast majority out there) are charged up about the prospect of a Black man succeeding Bush. I don’t think it’s enough to dismiss him as a Twiddledee.

    I notice there are a whole lot of white college kids who really want a Black president. They see it as a mark of progress and sophistication. And there are a lot of people of color who see Obama’s campaign as the culmination of a long struggle. There have to be ways to unite with their core motivating feelings for “hope” and “change” while driving home the point that capitalism and imperialism are the obstacles to hope and change and that Obama won’t do jack shit to get rid of those.

  8. saoirse said

    Redflags,

    I am not sure I understand your point when you say,

    “On Obama – I’d take it even further. Red state/Blue state America strikes me in its broad overviews like an election of “our boss” against “their boss.” Seriously, look at the folks on the the Democratic and Republican stages… and they look like your boss if you’re from the coasts or Chicago (centers of finance capital) and like “their boss” for the folks from Texas and Mississippi.”

    It seems that this election speaks on at least one level toward a post-partisan outlook amongst the american public. Obama’s campaign is not only a reject of DNC machine but its speaks of a willingness of whole sectors of the party to roll the dice towards an uncertain future with a fresh face you can map on yr “ideal democrat” ideal onto Obama.

    I think McCain, Huckabee and Paul all strike people, from sea to shining sea, as varying degrees as the “real” deal, a sincere politican. And along with Obama breath new life into the electoral arena of American politics.

    People feel like they are fighting for real issues and there is a striking level of non-cynicism and raw energy across the political because of many of these candidates campaigns. Post-911, post Katrina, post the many many blunders in Iraq, the left using the same blunt instruments of analysis to map onto to the current landscape troubles me. I want a new synthesis. One that engages Obama not simply understands him.

  9. saoirse said

    I also wanted to echo tellnolies comments about the weak analysis of much of the rev left on this years elections. There have been some interesting blogs in fire on the mountain about the Obama campaign that begin some of the work towards developing a much needed broader analysis.

  10. blackstone said

    Good article, good discussion!

    Definitely appreciate it Mike, that you took the time out to relay this experience to Kasama readers. I think it poses some questions and answers others.

    Again it was said

    ““It is similar now on a different scale, where so many progressive people are “chomskied out”—where they have all kinds of “facts” about how fucked up things are, but don’t leap from there to a hopeful & energetic engagement with revolutionary change. It’s not that they “don’t know”—& that they need more “exposure” of how fucked the system is, or how resistant it has been to reform…The “problem” is that we need to grapple together with people over the way they have assembled those “facts” into a particular worldview (one that often sees no place for an alternative future.)”

    This takes me back to the essay i wrote about the RCP’s paper Revolution. In it I said

    “Condescending and patronizing language and tone towards white readers has become a hallmark of the RCP. This can be witnessed no better than a poster placed in Issue #111 of Revolution. The Poster was entitled ‘Attention White People What is your Problem?!?’ and used words, images and situations that suggested that all white people are the same, in this case racist. It attempts to invoke a sense of guilt in white people by using a harsh tone directing white people to “Wake the fuck up”, “Stop thinking with its [capitalism] racist values” and “Start resisting”. (2)”

    I think this attitude, even if you were to correct it in yourself, has prevailed in the RCP and other leftists circles. It’s no that people do not know there is injustice or suffering or discrimination of the world that is the cause of their inmobility, but other as you said deepseted views and summations.

    What does that mean? It means, to me at least, that as you say throwing statistics at people or using harsh tones towards them for not mobilizing will not mobilize them. People, or in this case, white people are not a blank slate. Whereas you have to do is get the word out to people. People aren’t bombarding the Capitol because they don’t know about police brutality, institutional racism or worse, about Bob Avakian.

    Yet, this is not to say that exposing cold hard facts is useless. No, because that is needed. Yet, cold facts and harsh tones towards the masses is the wrong approach to mobilizing them. Then you will wonder why you do not have a large base of support or your rallies fail.

    BTW, Jaroslav I love you.

    “In my view the party is — or should be anyway — the vanguard, the advanced leading section of the masses (not ‘for’ them). This seemingly small lexical distinction makes a world of difference.”

  11. [...] The Party’s OverWelcome to Kasama … on Linc and Me: On the Material B…blackstone on Linc and Me: On the Material B…Ben Seattle on Welcome to Kasamasaoirse on Linc and Me: On the Material B…saoirse on Linc and [...]

  12. tellnolies said

    A few points on Obama and the Elections:

    1. It is a very good sign that the US imperialist ruling class has to even consider resorting to a redemptive figure like Obama. It is an indication of the severity of the crisis of legitimacy that the US gov’t faces both amongst its own population and around the world. It is not enough to say that he is running to be the face of US imperialism. We need to grapple with what it really means that the empire might need to have this particular face. Obama is raising expectations that are potentially dangerous. He is being allowed to do so because the system needs to figure out how to bring back a huge section of the populace that has become profoundly alienated from the system during the Bush years. That Obama has been allowed to get as far as he has is a sign of desperation in certain quarters.

    To illustrate this point, check out this video of thousands of black students from Texas Prairie View A&M University blocking 7 miles of hiway as they march to the only early voting site made available to them by the white racist political machine:

    2. It is a good thing that millions of people — especially black folks and young people — who have been effectively politically neutralized are getting involved in politics, even if it is the admittedly highly compromised politics of the Democratic Party. These people can and will go in all sorts of directions. Some will become lifelong Dems or just be demoralized again. But if Obama is iced out of the nomination OR if he is elected and ends out prolonging the war on Iraq OR [insert scenario here] many will be receptive to radicalization. Lots of people are learning all sorts of things through this process. Revolutionaries need to figure out how to be part of that mix beyond just hectoring people from the sidelines about the folly of placing their hopes in this candidate.

    A good illustration of the truly progressive if contradictory politics that are being projected by people onto Obama can be seen in this video:

    3. Elections are not JUST a circus. They are actually part of how the direction of this society is set. Not in the ways we are taught in civics classes of course, but still in ways that matter. Yes there is a more or less permanent executive completely beholden to the ruling class, and yes through various mechanisms they control the range of acceptable candidates more or less as thoroughly as the ayatollahs control the choice of candidates in Iran. And yes whoever gets elected must answer to the ruling class. That said, the ruling class is not homogenous in interests or outloook and there are all sorts of minor and major contrardictions within it. These get wrangled out in many places. But one of them is in electoral campaigns where coalitions of both elite fractions and various organized popular forces (whether those are labor unions or anti-abortion forces) vye for the opportunity to lead. And because the world is NOT a determinist place, the outcome of these contests can have enormous consequences, not least of all in shaping the terrain on which revolutionaries will do their work.

    4. While the complex factional politics of the US ruling class can not be tidily reduced to the two major parties representing two blocs of capital or some such mechanical nonsense, the two parties DO have distinct functions in the ideological legitiamation of the system as a whole, with the Dems assigned the responsibility of keeping the more potentially insurgent sections of the populace in line. Within this framework, when the Republicans are in power the system always has an extra card in its hand for the maintenance of popular legitimacy (namely letting the Dems win the next election) that it doesn’t when the Dems are in power. Having the Dems in power when the system is going into a deep crisis that they can’t solve increases the prospects for mass radicalization and the rejection of the system as a whole by large sections of the people.

    5. Redflags is right that as revolutionaries we need to look beyond winning over just the base of the Democratic Party but also at fractions of the more problematic mass base of the Republicans. An interesting aspect of the Obama campaign is the way that he is breaking the hold that the Republican Party has on some of those elements as well.

    6. In the interest of full disclosure and at the risk of the scorn I expect such a confession to prompt, I confess that on Feb. 5 I voted for Barack Obama.

  13. tellnolies said

    I guess I can’t embed video.

    Here are the links:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvDAiWWuvRg

  14. zerohour said

    “6. In the interest of full disclosure and at the risk of the scorn I expect such a confession to prompt, I confess that on Feb. 5 I voted for Barack Obama.”

    Actually, I am interested in why you voted for Obama. Is it because you think his election would open up more space for revolutionaries to do our work? Whenever I’ve heard this in the past, I always thought it was a rationalization for people who actually did not want to pursue revolutionary work but couldn’t let go of the revolutionary impulse. I am not assuming this here.

    What are the strategic factors that we must consider for a revolutionary approach to electoral politics in an empire? How can we assess if or when to participate, and at what levels?

  15. SS said

    I’ve been thinking a lot about the potential effect Obama will have on the youth. He is overwhelmingly the top pick of most liberal/moderate students in college who will be voting for the 1st/2nd time. The 2006 elections were the highest for voter turn out of the youth in 30-40 years (I think that’s right), and it looks like this election will be the same if not higher.

    The illusions are strong and the expectations are pretty high. In talking with students and mentioning various positions Obama has taken on different issues I often hear “Oh that’s not what he really means by that,” or other self-deceptions. This is not universal, of course sometimes in the end I find out that the people I’m talking to are really buying into the “war on terror”, but in many cases it’s simply people covering their ears and wishing.

    I’ve even heard people say in passing “I’ll never vote again if he (Obama) doesn’t get elected.” This can’t of course be taken literally but it goes to show how much stock people are putting into him.

    If he doesn’t get elected, it will leave large masses of young voters feeling immediately alienated from the electoral process, and possibly receptive to alternative ideas. If he does then potentially the same thing will happen with perhaps even larger sections of young people and with potentially much longer lasting consequences (having watched the electoral process be tried and failed).

    It will be interesting to see what kind of effect all the emotional jerking around will have on people. This election is certainly not one of bourgeois politics but much more of “hope” and wishful thinking.

    I think over the course of the next year putting our ideas out there widely among young voters will be important. Although the immediate effects will be limited (because of the objective difficulties during elections years) the ideas will remain in peoples minds, and when those high hopes have been (even if only partially) shattered they’ll remember that there is an alternative.

    Something I heard Sunsara Taylor say once was very interesting. She was at a Hillary Clinton forum that was for all women, it was essentially trying to put Clinton out there as a feminist and the correct choice for female voters. During the QA she stood up and starting laying out rape statistics and speaking about patriarchy and talking about how a female president (especially Hillary) couldn’t deal with these issues, and how a mass movement was necessary. She split the room in half and received applause. Now I have no doubt that many of the women applauding her will still vote for Hillary. And many of them will not go to a protest anytime soon. But the message was planted, and it will still be there when people get disappointed again. And it will stick out in peoples minds when they run into revolutionary politics in the future.

    I think that’s the attitude we need to take during the course of the next year. There is a strong tendency for a defeatist line to emerge during elections (it’s going to be difficult so we might as well not try that hard). On the contrary I think that if we are out there, at Obama rallies, putting forward a bold alternative (event trying to tap into some of that hope and enthusiasm) although we will probably be met with even more resistance than normal it will pay off in the end. Or at a minimum teach us valuable lessons for the future.

    I think the key issue here is not to be simply handing out fliers or newspapers, but to be among the people at these forums, and super tuesday parties (well they’re over now but you get my point), and rooting ourselves in the thinking of the people and among them. We have to be familiar faces when the illusion comes crashing down. Not just people that are going to bring a few papers and then disappear for the next year…

    Although I’m using mostly Obama’s name the same goes for Ron Paul. The situation is a little different in his case (since he’s not a “viable” candidate) but the idea is similar.

    On a separate note…

    Blackstone: I read that article you linked above and found it very interesting. Especially some of the commentary on Rev interviews. However I think your line of “white guilt” is only partial. It’s not necessarily just white guilt that the RCP uses but guilt in general. Look at the WCW line on complicity and the “your government” statements. It’s much deeper than how you portray it, and perhaps arises from the RCP’s theory on needing to appeal to peoples sense of ethics in order to make revolution in an imperialist country. This is a separate discussion worth delving into. Is it wrong to appeal to peoples sense of guilt if it is done in a more tactful and strategic way than the RCP has been known to do? Shouldn’t people feel guilty for complicity? Will more be won over or driven away?

  16. Mike E said

    I think this thread is one of the most important ones on this site.

    I don’t think we should scorn those who vote for Barak Obama (including those on this list)… but we really have to grapple with how to deal with the rise of such a movement (and a climate).

    I think several things:

    a) It is not simply a reflection of discontent, it is also an operation of co-optation. Yes, Obama is acting like a lightening rod for those furious over the war, the political paralysis of the official system, the continuing racism of the U.S., the ugliness of its political life, and the generational exhaustion of the polarizations that emerged from the 60s. But he is also acting as a lightening rod drawing people INTO this process, with a logical endgoal of voting for the Democratic candidate in November and legitimizing whoever wins. And more, it is training in a method and set of assumptions about “change.”

    2) We need to be part of the political life of this country in a way that influences progressive and radical-minded people when they hit major events. If Obama’s nomination is stolen (by superdelegates, or some hyped “gaffe” frenzy, or whatever), there will be some deep dismay. If he is nominated and then just gang-squashed by the media machinery (as “not ready” or whatever), and McCain wins, there will be a different kind of dismay. If he wins, and then carries out an imperialist policy (which he would, of course), there is a different set of responses and contradictions among the people. And we need to intersect with those experiences and those people. In any case, the larger dynamic that unfolds is how the next president (and the next president’s real world options) are not decided “by the electorate” but by the needs and powercenters of a capitalist-imperialist system. This can come out in a number of ways (some of them shocking, some infuriating, some merely demoralizing) for these sections of the people… but this is real political life. The same kind of process that taught many the “value” of their vote (i.e. florida 2000) , can teach them other lessons (about who really rules, or how political figures are really pulled.)

    My generation watched LBJ win on an antiwar platform, and then launch the Vietnam war. It was a profound lesson (that left millions permanently distrustful of the Democrats). That sharp event (which lit the world for a few years) made every radical current from the NCM to the Greens possible.

    Obama in power would be a force for “redoing” the war for the world (Take 2 in “our global offensive”). His best chance for victory is if Bush fails spectacularly over the next year. McCain’s is if the war in Iraq seems to stabilize….(into a slow brutal grind).

    3) At the same time, I note SS (in his thoughtful notes in this thread) coming into a quandry when he thinks about HOW to intersect with the people… He writes:

    “I think the key issue here is not to be simply handing out fliers or newspapers, but to be among the people at these forums, and super tuesday parties (well they’re over now but you get my point), and rooting ourselves in the thinking of the people and among them. We have to be familiar faces when the illusion comes crashing down. Not just people that are going to bring a few papers and then disappear for the next year.”

    There is a spirit of fighting to be “among the people” that I deeply unite with. The habitual fly-bys and left ambulance chasing have problems we have discussed elsewhere.

    But how can we be “familiar faces” in the “super tuesday parties” (or tomorrow’s equivolent line moveon.org fundraisers) WITHOUT contributing to the mind fuck….? Isn’t enthusiastic (or at least active) support for Obama (and possibly Hillary) the ticket of admission, the price of familiarity? Is that really where we should go…. into the Democratic Party process in order to (eventually) help “expose” that process.

    I suspect that will not work. And we will just disappear (especially given the fragile strength of our movement at this point).

    4) I want to note tellnolies writing: “In the interest of full disclosure and at the risk of the scorn I expect such a confession to prompt, I confess that on Feb. 5 I voted for Barack Obama.”

    Well, I don’t think scorn is appropriate — because we need to talk these things out. (And scorn implies that it is all a settled question, which it fucking isn’t for the many people we need to be drawing in.) But it would have been nice to have that debate BEFORE February 5 (not just confess it afterwards). Take a moment, tell-no-lies, and really tease out your logic here.

    It is very different from my thinking. I can’t imagine voting for someone advocating nuclear options against Iran or support for Israel, and on another level I would never vote for a Democrat (the party of Hiroshima, Vietnam and welfare reform). And on yet another level, I would never participate in voting at all — since I think it gives legitimacy to their system (and legitimacy to their election winners — even if you vote against their winners, and more so if you vote for them!)

    Did you vote because you can’t face the scorn of those who believe in it (since we all believe in influencing them)? Or do you yourself believe “it matters” whether you vote or not? What actually is the reasoning?

    i think we need to dig deeply into this, over time, with thought and theory unleashed. We need tactics and also a way of thinking aobut this whole dynamic. The elections are not simply a sham… though they are a sham. They are not simply a training school in legitimizing the system, though they DO legitimize this system and train peole in its “choices.”

    Let’s think it through together — without knee-jerk “scorn” that arises from a white-knuckled “fidelity” to a verdict wrested out of a famous set of episodes in 1964-1968.

    We need a verdict arising from the experiences of THIS generation in this world situation, and from the arguments we can have now. And we need a language to spread that verdict more and more widely.

  17. SS said

    When I talked about being where the people are in relation to the elections I mean looking more for opportunities where we can show up as living people ready to present an alternative options. Going to a super Tuesday party doesn’t necessarily mean validating the electoral process if we use it as a venue to open discussions about alternative roads. Let’s start live debates! Not just give people newspapers to skim over, judge, and toss out. We need to be living breathing people among the masses and we need to familiarize ourselves with their terrain. We can’t appear just as outside forces competing to present information, because let’s face it. We will lose in that venue if that’s ALL we do. They have access to mass media, and million dollar deceptions. A simple newspaper can’t compete with that until we have gained validation in other ways. A revolutionary core that is familiar and trusted among the people can. Like I said. We may not make a lot of progress this year. But if we develop ties with people (even regular communication), and watch the events unfold, at least some of our claims WILL be validated earning us more than just a few new readers.

    There has to be some way to unify on an acceptable level with the people who are wrapped up in the electoral process, that still leaves us room to struggle hard. I’m not entirely sure where that is yet, but this is something that we need to discuss and report progress on. I constantly find myself passing up the opportunity to go to these events because I’m organizing for some other more “radical” event and then I wonder why 50 people instead of a thousand show up. It really pays to sit down with people and actually talk. And example, the super Tuesday event I was referencing was an informal sort of thing where a large group of people were going to get together and discuss the primaries. I passed up the opportunity to go because I didn’t see it as important or “radical”. Later I realized that there was a lot of potential to learn and put a message out that I missed out on. What if I had started a speak out at the end where people could vent their frustrations? I could have put my line out there and got into some good conversations with people (even who were still wedded to the electoral process) who had potential to be radicalized. One new person inclined to radicalism can result in 20 new ties. I forget this sometimes and wind up content just creating the “vehicles” and expecting people to jump in.

  18. SS said

    “We need to be part of the political life of this country in a way that influences progressive and radical-minded people when they hit major events.

    1. If Obama’s nomination is stolen (by superdelegates, or some hyped “gaffe” frenzy, or whatever), there will be some deep dismay.

    2. If he is nominated and then just gang-squashed by the media machinery (as “not ready” or whatever), and McCain wins, there will be a different kind of dismay.

    3. If he wins, and then carries out an imperialist policy (which he would, of course), there is a different set of responses and contradictions among the people.

    And we need to intersect with those experiences and those people. In any case, the larger dynamic that unfolds is how the next president (and the next president’s real world options) are not decided “by the electorate” but by the needs and powercenters of a capitalist-imperialist system. This can come out in a number of ways (some of them shocking, some infuriating, some merely demoralizing) for these sections of the people… but this is real political life. The same kind of process that taught many the “value” of their vote (i.e. florida 2000) , can teach them other lessons (about who really rules, or how political figures are really pulled.)”

    The above three possible scenarios need to be analyzed deeply each in their own respect and at least tentative outlines of how to deal with each need to be drawn up.

    I don’t really have any theories drawn up yet but I would like to hear peoples opinions of each.

  19. Jaroslav said

    I have the same decision-making logic as Mike regarding voting: I just don’t, I refuse to give this system that kind of legitimacy. I’ve never voted for anyone in any governmental elections.

    However, is it really so simple? Where is the qualitative line of distinction to which an action within the system’s bounds gives legitimacy? After all, there are the lifestyle-anarchist types who think that having a wage-paid job & paying rent is giving legitimacy to the system. Then there is the other extreme, the idea that any job — even with the military — can be excused because we must accept that we currently live under this system. Even within voting, there are subcategories. For example I have voted in my union locals, for approval (or not) of contracts; I see this as qualitatively different than governmental elections, despite that I have about the same amount of faith in mainstream US unions as I do in US government.

  20. Anon said

    Not to get off topic, but I can’t let this go without saying…

    will be about as effective as “exposing” the logical fallacies of the Bible.

    A lot people that take the buy-bull literally or mostly-literal don’t know of the numerous (acutely obvious to critical readers) contradictions. I have numerous examples of producing fallacies to people and actually getting the person to think about the illusions they’ve held as gospel truth (pun intended).

    I think you’re downplaying exposure… though I do agree it can be IT and if it is IT, it won’t win the faith-filled.

    Perhaps this also ties into illusions of bourgeois democracy producing “change?”

  21. Anon said

    …to be clear, the italic-bold is quoting #5

  22. blackstone said

    SS you said

    “Blackstone: I read that article you linked above and found it very interesting. Especially some of the commentary on Rev interviews. However I think your line of “white guilt” is only partial. It’s not necessarily just white guilt that the RCP uses but guilt in general. Look at the WCW line on complicity and the “your government” statements. It’s much deeper than how you portray it, and perhaps arises from the RCP’s theory on needing to appeal to peoples sense of ethics in order to make revolution in an imperialist country. This is a separate discussion worth delving into. Is it wrong to appeal to peoples sense of guilt if it is done in a more tactful and strategic way than the RCP has been known to do? Shouldn’t people feel guilty for complicity? Will more be won over or driven away?”

    But i say refer back to Revolution, any article and again look at the tone. For example, On the Road to Jena by Alice Woodward

    “One of these youth in particular looks at this path as all he can do in life, he feels hopeless, and for many days sharply writes off our discussions about revolution and the system. “Why you always want to talk about revolution? All that revolution talk.” I begin to ask him every time he tells a story of life as a young person in the dungeons of this system for years, of getting pulled over, arrested, harassed again and again, a childhood of abuse, a life where you don’t know how you’re gonna survive. I ask him, “And you don’t want to talk about revolution?” I ask him, “Why do you think the world is this way?” When his friends struggle with him to come talk to us, with bitter hostility he tells them, “I ain’t talkin to those revolutionaries.

    They dream of escape. A different story every day. A job, any job, just to have the feeling of getting a paycheck every week and buying tennis shoes. College, and dreams of life as an agriculturist, zoologist, or veterinarian—putting to use some of the passion and skills that they have developed growing up in the country.”

    The tone towards the black person in this story, and i’ve noticed towards most black people in the Revolution paper is empathetic towards the reasons why black people whether as individuals or as collective do not get involved or take an active participatory role in the movement. While on the other hand it seems to me that white people aren’t offered that. Theres no benefit of the doubt. No attempt to grasp the causations or continuation of their complicity. It’s just they are thinking “thinking with it’s[capitalism] racist values” or just not “bothered to get involved”

    It’s white guilt thats in the paper, not “black” guilt. I see no evidence of ads saying ” Black people wake the fuck up” or “what the fuck is your problem” or “stupid black people”,etc,etc.

    I think this derives from the RCPs past(current?) belief that blacks are the most revolutionary force in America. So why offend them? You want them on your side.

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