Clarke and Goff: Alternative Agriculture is Possible
Posted by Mike E on April 26, 2008
A reader of Kasama, who is also a radical midweste.rn farmer, suggested we run this piece. It originally appeared on counterpunch April 24, 2008.
An Alternative Agriculture is Possible: The Politics of Food is Politics
By De Clarke and Stan Goff,
In recent days, we have seen the rising price of oil and the devaluation of the dollar create two quantum shifts in the economy: the beginning of the collapse of the air travel industry and a global crisis of food-price inflation. These are related in ways that are crucial to understand — because we are seeing the outlines of an historic opportunity to change the terms of theory and practice for a politics of resistance. As air carriers have gone bankrupt, the knock-on effects on travel agents, airports, airport-colocated hotels, “package” vacation resorts, etc. are considerable.
This is how one cascade pours into another, as the manifold contradictions of our global system merge and co-amplify. Tourism, which was supposed to be a relatively benign, non-extractive industry for colonized nations — an alternative to brutal extraction and cash cropping — turns out to have been just as extractive all along due to the climate (and cultural) damage done by commodified air travel.
The end of cheap air tourism may seem like a good thing. And yet the collapse of tourism, in economies where the culture and scenery have become a last-ditch cash crop, can have effects just as disastrous as the collapse of any other external commodity market in a country that has been sucked into the undertow of global capitalism.
How much more devastating is the catastrophic cascade of food price inflation? (It’s also directly related, by the way, to the plateau of global oil production in the face of relentless expansion of “demand” — more on this below.) They’re intertwined; the downsizing of air tourism reduces money income for populations dependent on the global capitalist economy for staple foods, just at the moment when scarcity, uncertainty, and rampant speculation are causing staple food prices to spike.
It’s not a pretty picture, and the mainstream media are reporting on it with breathless alarm and utterly unjustified surprise; commentators from various perspectives (left, environmental, anti-colonialist, even libertarians) have seen this coming for a while.
Why Us? Why Now?
The airline industry has been very forthright about their problems. They are saying, “We were neither tooled nor organized for $120-a-barrel oil.” Most of us get this, because we associate transport technology with fossil hydrocarbons. We drive cars; and we buy the gas to put in those cars. Planes run on No. 1 Jet Fuel and if oil prices go up, so does the cost of jet fuel. Most of us are less likely to associate is oil prices with food prices.
We buy food at the supermarket; so we don’t generally experience — directly — the association between fuel and food. The connection, however, is every bit as central in the current food production regime as the link between aircraft engines and their fuel. Industrial monocropping for global distribution is “neither tooled nor organized for oil at $120-a-barrel.” It is not just the far-flung food transport network (much of it refrigerated and fuel-hungry) that creates the intimate dependency on oil; it is the whole scheme called industrial (or corporate, or “modern”) agriculture.
This oil/food link — during the onset of what some call the Peak Oil event — has resulted almost overnight in steep food-price inflation, hitting peripheral economies like a tsunami.
Half the world’s population survives on less than $2 per person per day. Even an increase of a few pennies for a kilo of rice can threaten survival on such a slender margin. That — on the surface — is why we are witnessing an outbreak of food riots around the globe.The unexamined assumption, however, is that it’s somehow natural for human beings to be in the position of abject dependence on cash money to obtain food.
We said that we are seeing the outlines of “an historic opportunity to change the terms of theory and practice for a politics of resistance.” In a real sense, however, we are suggesting a return to a perennial politics of resistance: the defense of “peasant” (smallholder, local) agriculture against imperial profit-takers. We are embarking upon an epoch that might best be called “imperial capitalist exterminism,” in which billions of people may be left — through calculated villainy or sheer stupidity — to the tender mercies of war, pestilence, and famine as “externalities” of the so-called “free market.”
In this new world order, the old class antagonisms across the axis of employer-employee have been replaced by debtor-creditor and producer/processor, and material “contractions” in the economy have transformed the “reserve army of labor” into “surplus people”… a darwinian nightmare leaving us nearly 7 billion souls at extreme risk.
Though the brunt — as always — is now being borne by the most marginal and fragile, the over-developed industrial metropoles are not escaping the impact of this crisis. In the United States, the culmination of a decades-long crisis of capital accumulation — which has heretofore been exported to the rest of the world — is coming home to roost in the form of a severe “credit crisis” at the same time as the oil price spike. We are entering a protracted period of stagflation: economic stagnation (recession) combined with price inflation (due in part to the impact of oil prices on virtually all economic sectors). We in the US are more deeply in debt, personally and nationally, than at any time in our history. And the key products that are driving up our cost of living — even as our net worths stagnate and fall back — are basically gasoline and food.
We metropolitan Americans panic when we contemplate the possibility of becoming unable to afford our private automobiles. This is not just because of our legendary ego-attachment to the car. The primary reason we panic is because we need our cars to get to our jobs (at least one study has suggested that Americans spend 20 percent of their take-home pay on their cars, so we are working one day out of five to pay for the car so we can drive to the job). And we need our jobs.
It’s a given: people need their jobs. But why? Because without the income from those jobs, we and our children don’t eat. Our access to food is permitted only when it’s mediated by money — which we can only obtain by working (for the ruling class) or by becoming wards of the state (which, increasingly involves coerced labour).
Once again, gasoline and food are intimately entwined — in the mesh of dependencies that keeps us all obedient to the bosses of the monetized economy. Most people can’t eat without participating in the money economy because they have been driven off the land, and live in high-density “people storage” buildings without any access to living soil; or because, despite living in the suburbs or semi-rural areas with ample access to soil, they lack the skills and knowledge to produce their own food; or the soil they do have access to has been killed by industrial farming practises and can only “produce” by means of massive external inputs that must be purchased from the money economy (and the extractive industries).
The fossil/extractive industries and the money economy have built fences all around the food supply, from production to consumption. We play their game or we don’t eat. Now their game is coming apart at the seams.
Food is Not What it Once Was
Now it may be time to take a longer view and remember how these fences around food were built. The story of the last 200 years can be told many ways, but one way we can tell it is as the triumph of the extractive industries — and their mindset and methods — over all other human activities. The masters of mining and metallurgy, and of colonialist exploitation, have their fundamental premises: a reductionist approach that isolates the “valuable” in any “resource base”, separates it from the “dross”, and discards — externalizes — the “dross” while selling the “high value” extracted product for the best price possible.
With the rise of industrial capitalism (itself built on intensive colonial extraction) these premises became definitive for all human activities in the dominant imperial culture — including those where such premises would be more than merely dysfunctional, they would (eventually, if adhered to rigorously) be fatal for their practitioners. We now practice farming as an extractive industry supported by other extractive industries: mining topsoil and fossil water, growing only a handful of predetermined “high value” crops and discarding/exterminating all other cultivars, and seeking “best price” in markets regardless of distance and appropriateness (if it makes more money to grow palm trees for biofuel to ship to wealthy customers overseas, then by all means destroy peasant smallholdings that produced food for local people, or forest that maintained water circulation and climate stability, in order to establish massive monocrop palm oil plantations).
The mindset and praxis of mining has been superimposed on all other activities: fishing is now practiced as stripmining by factory trawlers, bottom draggers, etc. The “bycatch” phenomenon, decimating hundreds of species as “collateral damage” in the hunt for select high-value species, is directly analogous to the proliferation of slag piles and acid pools around mining operations.
Dairy farming is practised as stripmining, pumping external inputs (hormones and other drugs) into heifers to force maximum production and extraction of the “high value” product (milk), and discarding the “dross” (a cow burnt out as a milk producer by the age of 3 and sold for cheap meat). This extractive praxis is guaranteed to destroy biotic systems — whether it be the body of a cow, or an entire ecosystem — because no biotic system can survive being stripped for specific “high value” parts.
Ecosystems, like animals, function as a whole. The rates of return demanded by finance capitalism are inherently incompatible with the rate of solar return expressed by natural growth patterns in biotic systems. We are biological — biotic — creatures, and all our food is the product of biotic systems. The extractive mindset that capitalism requires to provide its fantastical rates of return is incompatible with biotic reality.
Capitalism and food have been on a collision course from the beginning. The forcing of higher rates of return out of biotic systems to satisfy finance capital and to conform to the extractive metaphor, requires doing such violence to individual organisms and to entire ecosystems, that very soon grotesque amounts of tinkering and external input are required to maintain (temporarily) an unsustainable “harvest.”
In animal husbandry this translates to the need for massive doses of antibiotics and other medications to enable animals to (barely) survive the cruel and pathogenic conditions of factory farming; in agriculture it translates into the systemic weakness of monocrop plantations which similarly require massive doses of pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers etc. to compensate for what is effectively a sickly biotic system, with a compromised immune response, low resilience, no robustness.
These massive external inputs are all fossil-based: they come from the extractive/chemical/synthetic sector (the sector of human endeavor that, in the “advanced” West, has dominated culture and industry since the early 1900’s). That sector in turn is the product of — is wholly dependent on — cheap fossil energy.
The maintenance of factory farms and feedlots like terminal patients on perpetual life-support has proven very profitable for the chemical/fossil sector. It has proven, temporarily, profitable for agribusiness which reaped record returns. And it has, as a side benefit, “improved the efficiency” of farming to such a startling extent that fewer than 2 percent of Americans still work on the land producing food. This means — from a capitalist boss perspective — that 98 percent of the population can be held to ransom for money, being unable to produce their own food. (And even those two percent of Americans who still farm often get all their household food from a corporate supermarket, since what they grow on their vast overcapitalized monocrop spreads is not edible by humans but merely the feedstock for industrial processes.)
The Official Story
The dismal quality of factory food has been ably documented by the Slow Food Movement, watchdog groups, and medical associations as well as by mavericks like Weston Price.
Why do we tolerate it — and the near-totalitarian control exercised over our food supply by a handful of giant agribiz combines? In part we tolerate monopoly and lousy quality in our food economy because the public believes industry propaganda that (in Margaret Thatcher’s infamous phrase) There Is No Alternative. The industry has cranked out a relentless barrage of propaganda for the last 50+ years, the gist of which can be summarised as follows:
* Industrial farming (aka the Green Revolution, one of history’s more painfully ironic misnomers) has increased yields per acre
* Given the pressure of present and future population growth, only industrial farming can feed the world
* Industrial farming is hygienic, scientific, smart and safe; all earlier farming techniques were dirty, primitive, ignorant and inferior
However, present circumstances impel us to ask what is smart or safe about a farming praxis that destroys topsoil and depletes millennia of subterranean water accumulation in a matter of decades; what is hygienic about a farming praxis that notoriously contaminates soil and watersheds with industrial chemicals, or creates “lagoons” of unmanageably concentrated animal urine and manure, or produces food that routinely generates “health scandal” headlines; and what is scientific about a farming praxis that routinely disregards the most basic principles of ecosystem theory and management. Add to the mix the fragility of a farming praxis utterly dependent on a fast-depleting finite resource like fossil fuels, and it looks more and more like folly … or a con game.
According to the industry propaganda line, only industrial farming can feed the world because industrial farming increased yields, and previous methods of farming were inadequate. Therefore, according to industry propaganda, the solution to the present food crisis is to throw more technology at it — namely, genetic modification to produce organisms that can somehow survive or even thrive in the cruel and pathogenic conditions of factory farming. (The fact that intellectual property law related to GMOs could then be used to extend the centralized control of food production into a completely enclosed monopoly is, of course, merely coincidental.)
To deconstruct this seamless “no alternative” story we have to return to the first big lie: that the Green Revolution (chemical/factory farming) improved agriculture, increasing efficiency/yields, reducing pest losses, making the best use of land, etc. In the short term some of the claims appear to be true: you can grow larger vegetables if you salt the soil with artificial fertilizers, and this appears to improve yields per hectare.
However, several studies confirm that foods produced biotically (”organically” in the somewhat confusing US idiom) are more nutritious than the larger and more cosmetically perfect factory-farmed equivalent; not only are they uncontaminated with chemical poisons, but they are more nutrient-dense, ounce for ounce, than the industrial product. In this case, what “yield” means to the industrial ag-nexus is not food — not nutritional value for people to eat — but hundredweight of marketable commodity.
In terms of “efficiency,” industrial agriculture does indeed look efficient from the finance capitalist point of view: using large mechanised devices to plant, harvest and process uniform, engineered monocrop from vast regimented plantations means that labour can be minimised: fossil fuels and machinery substitute for human labour, so that the wages/subsistence of workers/peasants are eliminated as an “operating cost”. So long as fossil fuels are dirt (so to speak) cheap, this is efficient (in terms of realizing maximum profit on a hundredweight of commodity); and it creates a large alienated, captive labor pool of people who at one time had some kind of food self-sufficiency as agricultural laborers and smallholders, but are now thrown into the industrial/money economy in utter dependency. But in the long term, it seems patently absurd to call any farming method “efficient” if it invests 10 fossil fuel calories to produce one calorie of food; or if it uses up a inch of topsoil for every 13 years or so of farming the same fields. (F. H. King’s Farmers of Forty Centuries documents practices which permitted Asian peasant farmers to plant and harvest on the same land for 4 millennia without exhausting the soil; North American topsoil 21 inches deep or more prior to European colonization is now down to 6 inches or less in many areas after only 200 years.)
In the long term, even the initial successes of the Green Revolution (GR) are hollowed out by diminishing returns and inconvenient facts: losses to pests are now higher per hectare than they were before the GR, despite the application of more and more costly high-tech pesticides. Monocrop plantations are simply too sickly, and pests are too rapidly-evolving and adaptive, for anything other than an endless treadmill of escalating cost and increasing toxicity. The artificial fertilizer and heavy machinery treadmill is very similar: for the first few years, yields may seem to improve, but soon the application of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides kills the soil, over-irrigation and heavy equipment compact it into hardpan, and what was fertile farmland becomes, essentially, semi-desert — a near-sterile growing medium requiring more and more chemical inputs to support plants in a kind of gigantic outdoor hydroponic garden.
The Happy Ever After story of the Green Revolution and Better Living Through Chemistry is not wearing well. Moreover, contrary to industry claims, there is an alternative; and the alternative has — potentially — profound political implications (which is precisely why the finance capital/extractive nexus wishes to eliminate it from public discourse).
Another Agriculture is Possible
Many well-substantiated studies show that intensive biotic polyculture — that is, the cultivation of many species of food plants in a small footprint, using biotic soil amendments and nutrient recycling — produces far more food per hectare than factory farming; uses far less water; and builds, rather than destroying, topsoil.
Although more human ingenuity, care, and attention are required, the adoption of permaculture principles and techniques reduces the drudgery of food production considerably; the permaculturist is assisting food to grow rather than forcing it to grow (or more hubristically, “growing” it), which is much less work all round than our cartoon cultural memory of dawn-to-dusk backbreaking peasant labor (which became backbreaking to pay “tribute” and debts to people with weapons and ledgers, not survive).
What intensive biotic polyculture does not do is maximise money profits, minimise labour inputs, or facilitate large-scale extractive cash-cropping.
For these reasons — not for any failure to produce food for eating — it is derided by industrial agribiz “experts” as impractical, inefficient, inadequate, etc. In fact, poly/permaculture’s abundant success in producing food for eating is one of the things that makes it a frightening prospect for those who control people by controlling people’s access to food.
What they don’t want us to know is that it works. Eisenia hortensis — the European nightcrawler (earthworm) — under ideal worm-farming (vermiculture) conditions double their volume through reproduction every 90 days. Each individual worm can eat approximately half its body weight each day. A pound of E. hortensis, then, can consume a half-pound of non-oily, vegetable kitchen scraps each day. The majority of that mass is excreted as an extremely high quality compost, with a bit of fluid (worm tea) left over (considered by many to be the organic uber-fertilizer). So, potentially, one pound of worms can convert around 180 pounds of kitchen scraps each year into the highest quality organic soil additive. Every five pounds of worm-castings can convert one-square surface-foot of soil into a super-producer for a four months. So one pound of worms can sustain 12 square surface-feet of garden throughout the year for the highest levels of productivity.
My own [Stan's] anecdotal evidence, without using worm castings but using simply composting mulch on organic compost over non-compacted soil, is that in 12 square surface-feet, one can grow three species of food, with six plants each… producing okra, tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, peas, bush beans, etc. Mixing them, and adding a couple of marigolds and aromatics (like mint or parilla) seems to keep the little critters from taking more than their share. Last summer I had one cucumber vine that produced around 50 mature cucumbers, totalling well over 20 pounds of food, for around three months. By rotating seasonals, it is easily conceivable to take a 12 square-foot plot in a temperate zone and raise 100 pounds of food a year… being very conservative. Neither Syngenta, nor Cargill, nor Archer-Daniels-Midland want you to know this.
They want to sell you mass-produced food, for money… which you have to work for. Let us not forget that Enclosure (forcing people off the land, or separating them from their land) was the method used to compel people into the monetized industrial economy in the first place. A 12-foot garden bed is three-feet by four-feet. How many of these can you build on a half an acre? The key is always in the design.
But by design, we mean learning — as in the design philosophy of “permaculture” — how to work with nature, and not to attempt the vain conquest of nature. The key to that design — aside from the mechanical tricks of trellising, water catchment, etc. — is to create the conditions for increasing dynamic biotic complexity, beginning at the micro-level with the soil itself.
We are not accustomed, especially on the political left, to thinking about such practical activities as “political.” We are still trapped in a strategic-theoretical model that equates power with policy, and policy is then undertaken as a purely ideological struggle. The persuasion of the word and the concept is given primacy over the persuasion of actual conditions and deeds. Metaphorically, we have constructed a line, running from left to right, and we use a constellation of policy-issues to place both people and discourse along that line.
The system, however, reproduces itself most earnestly through “facts-on-the-ground.” Fighting a system with nothing more than ideas is the most Quixotic, and ineffectual, form of struggle. Before we can suggest ideas, we must first have some facts-on-the-ground of our own to point to. Fortunately, we do. Some of them have just been recited above. We just need to point to them with more urgency now. Because the facts-on-the-ground of the present capitalist system, as we can see, have slammed into something like the end of an unexpected cul-de-sac. The epidemic of dollar hegemony has torn through the world like a plague; but plagues burn themselves out when all who are susceptible have been wiped out.
The airlines have run into the deep impasse of tooling and organization… and so has our food system. Our system has arrived decisively at what Ivan Illich called its second watershed: all our “cures” have become the disease. We are in a state of accelerating iatrogensis. The capitalist/extractive/technomanagerial system can only prescribe more of the same medicine that is killing us… or new medicines to treat the symptoms of the last medicine. This is not a metaphorical treadmill, but a downward spiral… and there is a bottom.
This may look gradual and incremental in the daily chronos of our lives; but in the larger sweep of historical kairos — a time that punctuates and disrupts chronos — the convergence of a crisis in dollar hegemony with the energetic limits to “growth” (a wicked bit of misnaming if ever there was one) has been concentrated on the reality of food — a reality from which no one can escape. Those in the commanding heights of the world food regime are watching their edifice begin to crumble.
Meanwhile, we already have our facts, our examples; and we have an opportunity — through sheer necessity driven by empty bellies — to expand those facts while the toppling food regime falls into its inexorable disarray. This is a teachable moment if ever there was one.
What is a Food Issue? Why Do We Need a Politics of Food Praxis?
At the policy level, because we would never eschew that, there is a nascent opposition to the “Farm Bill” — a massive annual government giveaway to agri-business. The left is not alone in its oppositon to this. Libertarians oppose it, too. Does it matter why?
The grotesque dysfunctions and injustices of the Farm Bill are visible to people across the political spectrum: more importantly perhaps, so is the unsatisfactory quality of the food and pseudo-food produced by the agribusiness cartels coddled by the Farm Bill. This is a food issue.
Free-trade agreements are ultimately designed to convert foreign economies into dollar-generating export platforms; and agriculturally this means monocropping at the expense of peasants, the urban poor, and the globe’s disappearing forests. This is a food issue.
US agricultural “dumping” is facilitated by massive government subsidies to agribusiness, which also facilitate the competitive destruction of local small producers. This same dumping introduces patented and GMO foods and seeds into the Third World to extend the reach of intellectual property lawsuits (a prime weapon of the extractive nexus against small producers). That is a food issue.
36 million households in the US are “food insecure,” because food is largley available only on the monetized economy; and poor people have very little money. This is a food issue. The food we do eat is filled with chemicals and contaminants — because the regulatory agencies (like the Food and Drug Adminsitration) have been converted into industry advocates by the determining role of money in politics (Ethanol, for example, is a vote-buying scheme, with ADM behind the scenes.). And because the industrial methods of farming require chemicals and contaminants to compensate for their pathogenic and violent treatment of creatures and biotic systems. These are food issues.
Health authorities increasingly acknowledge that the “western diet,” especially the western/industrial junk-food diet, is associated with the onset or the exacerbation of many debilitating diseases and conditions. Meanwhile, our medical care system is in crisis, in an endless death spiral of increasing demand and increasing cost. Our hospitals contain McDonald’s franchise outlets. These are food issues.
Our children are subjected to crap-food propaganda in school; and they eat crap food there. Corporations are behind this; and they intentionally addict our kids to crap-food. Some schools have begun to grow their own food; and the gardens are used as practical pedagogical tools as well as a source for clean food, with great success. Behavioral problems drop dramaticaly when kids eat clean, fresh food. These are food issues.
Anal-retentive white homeowners associations, who “associate” (pun intended) vegetable gardens with (eewwww) immigrants and dark-skinned folks, prohibit vegetable gardens in their neighborhoods (in the belief that veggies lower property values). This is a food issue. The agribusiness cartels are already trying to “crack down” on CSAs, farmers’ markets and other direct producer-to-eater convenyances of real food, usually under the banner of “public health”. They have already managed to leverage well-meaning public health and safety laws as weapons against small dairy and meat producers, and are even now trying to leverage the E Coli scares into a weapon against organic salad greens producers. This is a food issue.
One of the imperial fiats issued by Proconsul Bremer during the early occupation of Iraq was Order 81, the imposition of US intellectual property law on the subjugated nation; and one of the earliest “aid” initiatives was the marketing arm of the GMO seed vendors, attempting to force Iraqi farmers to use US patented GMO strains of wheat and barley. The American invaders may or may not intentionally have destroyed Iraq’s premier national seed bank of traditional, varietal cultivars. This is a food issue.
There is no aspect of our existence, locally, regionally, nationally, or globally, that does not have a direct connection to food. We are what we eat. What we eat is who we are. Resistance is Fertile In India, there are already mass movements of farmers against agribusiness. In Brazil, there is a mass movement of peasants against agribusiness. Even in Europe, there is mass resistance to genetically-modified crops and US monocrop dumping. Other regions will evolve their own forms of resistance, out of their own cultures.
The job of Americans is to work with other Americans; and the more locally, the better. This is where we know each other culturally. This is the belly of the beast. This is where we can make some facts-on-the-ground; where we can break out of the impasse created by these agribusiness behemoths and create practical alternatives… first cell-divisions of new social forms in the interstices of a decaying system. Practical alternatives, skill sets and designs — not alternative abstract ideologies — can give us the wherewithal to resist control when the ruling class tries to bully and bluff its way out of the crisis unfolding aroung us. Moreover, the fact of food independence is something tangible that people can — and will — defend.
Food dependency has always been the most essential weapon of the oppressor. That applies to the abused wife who will be cast into penury if she leaves her abuser (we ask, “How will she eat?”); and it applies to the alienated suburban technodrone, who knows — deep down — that he doesn’t know how he would eat without money. It applies to the indigenous population forbidden to grow their traditional crops by colonial masters; kicked off the best arable land by colonial masters; made dependent on second-rate food exports from the colonising nation; etc. It applies to the yeoman farmer deprived of common land and forced into the pool of desperate, hungry, deracinated wage-slaves who staffed the first industrial factories. It applies to citizens of Zimbabwe forbidden by President Mugabe and his political clique to keep vegetable gardens in the yards of their urban and suburban homes.
“Self-determination,” that shopworn phrase used by right and left alike, is not practicaly feasible — in any guise whatsoever — without food independence. If someone else controls your access to food then you have, by definition, no self-determination. You can’t hold a strike without a strike fund. Why do you need a strike fund? So you can eat. Food independence — food autarky — is not possible without greater separation of food from the monetized economy: (money is a weapon of control, an entitlement against others).
There is quite simply no independence, and little hope of a sustained resistance, without food security. Nor is there any way to get there (to a state of food democracy or food security) without relocalization as our most fundamental precondition.
What is To Be Done?
This is primarily a design-task, and only secondarily an ideological one… which bears the truth historical materialism should teach us above all others. In the United States and the other metropolitan nations, there is an emerging — if not terribly vocal — food movement. It involves everything from fighting prohibitions on raw milk to farmers markets to community-supported agriculture to community gardens.
This practice, which is coalescing into a movement, constitutes the original facts-on-the-ground referred to above. It is a hungry movement (another pun intended); and it craves expansion… not into a bureaucratic behemoth, but through organic expansion (another pun intended) at the local level. It is connected, through inextricable chains of implication, with a commitment to social justice, to environmental responsibility, to community-building, to fair labor practice, to fair trade. It connects people to these issues through the positive attraction of hedonism — good food tastes better — and the pleasures of engagement in community: it connects people to these issues through their urgent concerns about their own food security and the cleanliness/honesty/safety/responsibility of their food supply. And it cannot — by its very nature — fail to critique industrial capitalism as a system.
The argument from the archaic left, i.e. that the Food Underground is simply individualistic voluntarism, has copped to the idea that all practical palliatives are somehow the realm of the individual. This is premise-shifting and a deeply fallacious correlation. It means we still see the world exclusively through our left-to-right, linear continuum; and we still see politics as the persuasion of the word, our deeds being limited to symbolic expressions of resistance. And so, as counterpoint to the overwhlemingly overdetermined facts of the system, there is no concrete alternative we can show. We can only tell, or consult the historical archives. We need less telling and more showing. Food autarky and relocalisation are not symbolic acts of resistance, but actual resistance… the basis of resistance, the precondition of resistance.
Past revolutions began not with ideas in isolation; they began with facts-on-the-ground. By the time the French overthrew their aristocracy, that aristocracy was already moribund except for its political power. In every other realm, the businessmen who led the revolution were already dominant. The revolution evolved through the Kairos of history — through slowly maturing metatrends — which then interjected itself into the here-and-now Chronos of politics. The Kairos of history, in our time, is the long arc of fossil fuel depletion and the inevitable collapse of intricate profit-taking systems and hyper-extraction strategies predicated on unlimited cheap energy. “Just throw petroleum at it” is not going to work any more, This means that deep contradictions and crises papered over by desperate energy-intensive bandaids will become visible and painful (and they are, already).
The industrial food system is riddled with such crises and contradictions, barely papered over by throwing ever-more petroleum at it. It has reached a breaking point, and popular discourse is not unaware of this (as we may infer from the groundswell of popular nonfiction books highly critical of the system). The exposure of these fault lines — and the intimate nature of food, for us social primates — can be highly politicizing for large numbers of people; and whatever the ideological effects, the praxis of food autarky and community-through-food can only enhance our chances of survival and resistance during a period of (potentially) extreme dislocation.
The kitchen garden — the “victory garden” — represents not only the ability to sustain resistance (or aggression) against a foreign enemy, but the ability to resist domestic authority and to withdraw, at least partially, from the money economy and the wage-slavery and debt on which it is based.
Capitalism began by kicking people off their land and forbidding them to grow their own food; the end of capitalism may come when people who grow their own food and share it with neighbors are able to say a resounding No to capitalism’s end-phase exterminism.
We need not start from scratch in order to “return to a perennial politics of resistance: the defense of “peasant” (smallholder, local) agriculture against imperial profit-takers.”
The Food Underground is already here. It has been invisible to many of us, because our eyes were fixed on “higher” ideological struggles… while the basis of effective counter-ideology — skill and design — quietly passed us by. It is time to change that. Political resisters need to learn and apply the skills and designs of the food underground; and the food underground needs deeper, more focused and intentional politicization.
The Left may even learn something about organising and social change from the permaculture principles; it may be that in the long run, we do not “grow” revolution any more than we grow plants; it may be that social change is not forced, but is assisted to happen by creating the preconditions for an explosion of vitality, diversity and robustness in our (counter)culture. It may be that successful social change is more like gardening, and less like war, than our rhetoric and our habits of thought assume.
In summary, the Left and the food underground need each other; because history’s Kairos has interjected itself into our Chronos and opened a path, a teachable moment for all of us. It is an unfamiliar path, perhaps, but not nearly so perilous as standing still.
* * * * * *
De Clarke is a radical feminist essayist and activist living in the United States from 1980 to 2008. She now lives in Canada on her old boat. Much of her writing addresses the link between violence against women and market economics. While in the US, she raised vegetables and kept bees.
Stan Goff is the author of “Hideous Dream: A Soldier’s Memoir of the US Invasion of Haiti” (Soft Skull Press, 2000), “Full Spectrum Disorder” (Soft Skull Press, 2003 He is a Methodist and an organic gardener. He has written about the military and militarism, and about masculinity-constructed-as-conquest.
They can be reached at: stan@stangoff.com





gangbox said
De Clark and Stan Goff already made my point for me – “…the Food Underground is simply individualistic voluntarism”
The idea that you can defeat agribusiness by a “nonideological” struggle to encourage urbanites and suburbanites on the joy of individual gardening is dangerously silly.
You can’t defeat capitalism by some kind of back to nature movment seeking to return to some idealized pre industrial past.
Besides that, the cold hard fact is, without refrigerated motor trucks, rail cars and cold storage warehouses and mechanized cash crop agriculture, there would be mass starvation around the world.
Not to mention the fact that non automated hand labor farm work is hard, backbreaking stoop labor – a life of drudgery that can only be romanticized by somebody who’s never had to do it for a living!!
Admittedly, I’m no farmer (my mom’s family left the cornfields of Lumberton County, North Carolina 5 generations ago, and my dad’s left the barley fields of County Cork, Ireland 6 generations ago) but I do know a little bit about hard physical labor (I’m a carpenter – and I know cutting wood with a handsaw is a hell of a lot harder than doing it with a power saw!!!)
Beyond that narrow prism of personal experience, I do have to say, we have a higher quality of life thanks to specialization (including a longer life expectancy and more lesiure time for things like…blogging about maoism on the internet!!!)
Trust me, you are much better off because you didn’t have to bust your ass building your own house, because professional construction workers like me did it for you!!!
The same with farmwork – you and I are much the better for the fact that somebody with a tractor who does that for a living harvested the vegitables and fruits in your and my fridge!
So, no, personal gardens are NOT the way forward for our society….
Communist revolution is..
And even after the revolition, we will still have a division of labor – which means farmers and farm laborers will farm, truckers will haul the produce to us, and we’ll get it at some post revolutionary version of a supermarket.
Now, we as a society will have to figure out a new fuel for those post revoutionary motor trucks and tractors, but, be that as it may, we’ll still need trucks and tractors!!
Because, quite honestly, I don’t think anybody REALLY wants to go down the Pol Pot road (that is, 14 hour workdays harvesting rice by hand – with armed guards with rifles at the edge of the field to make damned sure NOBODY slacks off!!!)
And that’s where a return to pre industrial agriculture will lead – backbreaking labor with little time for rest and no leisure time, coupled with mass starvation….
Sam said
Gangbox,
I agree with your overall point but industrial farming is not equal to using a tractor. That’s something to keep in mind.
BobH said
I read Stan’s blog occasionally, and while I think there is a touch of utopianism to his views on food independence, and a touch of catastrophism to his views on oil and energy, there’s a lot of useful insight here, in my opinion. Somehow, I don’t think a post on issues of food and energy will get the kind if attention the “telling each other how to fuck” post gets, which is a pity.
Gangbox, I think it’s ridiculous to pose the questions raised as one of oil-intensive factory farming vs Pol Pot. For one thing, what about Cuba? They seem to be developing a much more sustainable approach to agriculture without slave-like conditions (which are probably not even an accurate depiction of Cambodia).
The serious problems of monocrop farming, soil depletion/desertification, overfishing, increasing food toxicity, etc. are entirely real. We know permaculture works on a small scale, the question is can we scale it up in technologically sophisticated ways without forced labor? And the issue of whether the growing energy and food production crisis can only be solved by some form of “socialist permaculture” seems like a politically relevant question in this day and age.
A growing number of people in the U.S. can’t keep living the way they’ve been living. Maybe giving practical assistence in food semi-independence might a way of organizing that helps revitalize the left, because we need something.
Iris said
There is an interesting article on peak oil and imperialist plunder in Harpers this month. I’ll post on it soon.
This article is great, thanks so much for it–post more like it!
gangbox said
“For one thing, what about Cuba? They seem to be developing a much more sustainable approach to agriculture without slave-like conditions (which are probably not even an accurate depiction of Cambodia).”
BobH,
Cutting sugar cane with a machete is hard hard hard backbreaking work – not to mention extremely dangerous… a certain percentage of the farm workers WILL end up with severed fingers, missing eyes, cut off feet ect.
Just ask anybody who’s actually done that type of work.
I live in a Dominican neighborhood – I see old guys on the block who did cane cutting back home – and yes, there are missing eyes, and fingers.
Until Gorbachev cut off the subsidies, the Cubans were following the road the Australians had taken a generation before – moving away from dangerous stoop labor, and towards mechanizing cane cutting – and life was getting better for the men and women with the machetes.
Now, it’s back to stoop labor for the cane cutters – and severed fingers and missing eyes..
‘m sure if you actually asked the cane cutters for their honest opinions (and there were no DGI or G2 agents or Policia officers or CDR vigilantes around to overhear) they’d say they want the tractors back!!!!
Oh, and incidentally, it’s probably not an accident that the majority of cane cutters in Cuba are Afro Cuban (you don’t see a whole lot of Mulatto or Gallego Cubans in the cane fields – I wonder why that is???? Could it be because the job is so hard, dangerous and undesirable that only the most oppressed Cubans will do it???)
As for Cambodia (or “Democratic Kampuchea”, as Pol Pot called it) they did the whole back to nature piece because their agriculture had been wrecked by the American bombings of the Vietnamese People’s Army base camps and the civil war between General Lon Nol and the so called “Khmer Rouge” forces.
The country had become dependent on American PL 480 rice aid – and when the US forces withdrew on April 23, 1975, they cut off all food aid.
So, they had to jumpstart Cambodian agriculture, by making everybody in the cities – both city residents and rural refugees – go down to the farm.
And I do mean MAKING – that is, the Kampuchean armed forces basically made people leave the cities more or less at gunpoint (and they went – cause it’s never a good idea to get into a debate on civil liberties with a battle hardened 15 year old child soldier with a 7.62mm automatic rifle – cause that argument will end quickly and badly for you!!!)
There was a legit element of military necessity here – cause the Kampuchean leadership felt, correctly, that the US Air Force bombers would be back with a quickness, and they had no air defense system whatsoever.
But, once the folks walked out of the cities, and the dozens of kilometers to the farms the were being deported to, they were used as forced labor.
And they did have armed soldiers and militia – mostly teenagers, and many of them already hardened combat vets of the wars with Lon Nol and the Americans, despite their young age – and they were in security details to keep folks from striking or not working hard enough.
And they did shoot folks – not the ridiculous 2 million claimed by the professional anti communists, but more like 40,000.
A lot of those deaths were related to a split within the Kampuchean Communist Party between it’s pro Vietnamese/Soviet wing and the pro Chinese wing (and a lot of those political folks died at Tuel Sleng – the country’s only high school before the war, that became a combined correctional facility/torture center/courthouse/death row under Pol Pol)
But people got shot in the fields too – not to mention the much larger number who died of hunger, disease, industrial accidents, childbirth, old age or all the other ugly things that stoop labor farmworkers die of just on the regular.
So please please please do NOT romanticize the “man with a machete”!!!
Or, just ask one of your immigrant neighbors what it’s REALLY like to work like that!!!!
BobH said
Gangbox,
You seem to be implying that any kind of alternative approach to agriculture leads to the Khymer Rouge. That seems ridiculous, something only people on the far-right would believe.
You completely miss the point about Cuba. The sugar crop, whether harvested by hand or machine, is a cash crop for export, a concession to the realities of global capitalism. What I’m talking about is the Cuban developments in urban agriculture, permaculture, alternatives to pesticides and herbicides, etc. that developed after the collapse of the USSR. These show a real, functioning alternative in food production, something that starting to look practical in the current food price crisis.
Modern agriculture is completely dependent on oil: for the fertilizer and pesticides, for harvesting and transportation, for producing the machinery, etc. On top of that, monocrop production, which is ideal for mechanization, has all kinds of long-term problems associated with. What are your ideas on the problems of soil erosion and desertification, for example?
Nice posturing about the stoop labor, btw. I’m just getting into gardening, I’m aching from weeding the other day to plant some corn, but I’m not anticipating crippling injuries or 14 hour days to supplment my groceries. I’ve had my share of 14 hour days in nice, modern high-tech jobs, thank you very much.
Stan Goff said
There is the straw man; now go tear it up.
The Answer: “Communist revolution.”
I rest my case.
redflags said
I read Stan’s blog occasionally, and while I think there is a touch of utopianism to his views on food independence, and a touch of catastrophism to his views on oil and energy, there’s a lot of useful insight here, in my opinion. Somehow, I don’t think a post on issues of food and energy will get the kind if attention the “telling each other how to fuck” post gets, which is a pity.
Isn’t it. But food and fucking are things we will do, which beg the question of how (not whether) we do. They are fundamental to human life, intrinsically social and two places where the commodification of everything strikes most stark. It’s also to Goff’s credit that these are places he has put his mind to work.
Some of the only socialism I saw in Cuba were the community gardens throughout Havana. Most of them came to life during the Special Period, when the Soviet-style agribusiness used to regulate Cuban-Soviet relations crashed. They provide the freshest and most delicious food to be had. It is made with the voluntary labor of the community. It tastes good. My first mojito was made with socialist mint, that was never sold or produced for sale. It could be argued that Cuba is better off now that they are producing food for themselves instead of industrializing cash-crop agriculture for export. This isn’t just an American back-to-the-land issue.
Why does it have to be either/or on everything? Why have massive unemployment and the lumpenization of tens of millions when we can’t even produce fresh vegetables on much of New York state’s productive land, now turned over to rich Manhattanites weekend get-aways? What madness!
Raw milk? If anyone here has ever had the cheese in France, this wouldn’t even be a debate. It is food, real food, at a price a working person can afford.
This is an important article, thanks for posting it. I’m passing it on.
Maz said
Speaking of Harper’s, and speaking of raw milk,
this article was excellent. Some interesting thoughts on how industrialized agriculture is making us sick.
gangbox said
Let’s keep it real!
I still think the original authors, Stan Goff and De Clarke, and some of the followup posters, BobH and RedFlags, are romanticizing stoop labor in a way that only white collar folks who don’t do physical labor on the regular can.
Worse yet, they also are betraying an ignorance of basic economics – specifically, how production is carried out, and the value of economy of scale.
Now, I know a little bit about both topics – having had a lifetime of physical labor (as a factory worker in my youth, and a construction worker for the last 16 years), having spent the last 9 years writing about the politics and labor relations and civil rights policies of the construction industry in New York (click on the link on my name to read about that) and having had practical real world management experience in the construction industry.
Sorry to spell out the whole resume here, but I wanted to put my bona fides out there – and to explain exactly why I don’t romanticize back breaking hand labor.
First of all, we can rail all we want about the alleged low quality of factory farmed food, and nostalgically wish for artisnal food products (or spend top dollar to buy them from the farmers markets).
But the cold hard reality is, factory farming evolved FOR A REASON – specialization leads to efficiencies in production that lead to lower costs of production (and, of course, higher profits – which is why the capitalists love economies of scale).
Let’s keep it real here – well into the 20th century, most New York mothers could not afford to buy cows milk (and worked too hard and for too many hours in the sweatshops to produce the natural kind) and this led to an annual die off of babies every summer in NYC.
This caused problems for the powers that be here (think “inability to reproduce labor power”) so they started buying milk from the farmers and distributing it to low income mothers (most of the STD clinics run by the NYC Dept of Health began life as “Milk Stations” 100 years ago).
To feed this suddenly expanded market, Upstate New York dairy farmers became more efficient – they replaced milkmaids with milking machines, and abandoned other less profitable lines of production (market gardening, ect) to focus on the cash crop.
Improvements in transport, and the development of refrigerated ships, railcars and trucks, led to certain areas specializing in certain types of produce.
That’s why most of the bananas consumed in the US come from Columbia, Costa Rica and other Latin American countries, and most of Europe’s bananas come from Somalia – it just makes more sense to grow bananas in areas best suited for their production, and to ship them around the world to the markets where there is effective demand for those products.
Would it make sense to try and grow bananas in the Bronx – or Bremerhaven – or Amsterdam????
You could try it, but you’d have to have greenhouses, and special imported soils, and lots of fertilizer, and electric heating – basically, you’d be making a $ 10 a pound banana – when the Costa Rican and Somali bananas – even allowing for generous profits up and down the line and the shipping costs – end up costing 39 cents a pound.
For the same reason, it makes sense to grow oranges in California, Florida and Brazil and ship them around the world.
And we could go up and down the line here – but it’s basically the same reason why it makes more sense to make a car in Toyota City, Japan and ship it to New York City than it would for some junkyard owner on Jerome Av to hand build cars from spare parts.
You could make the hand built car – but it would cost a million dollars, as opposed to the $ 30,000 car from that factory in Japan.
That’s the same reason that it makes economic sense for these specialized farms to reduce the use of labor power, with stuff like synthetic fertilizers, pesticides, motor trucks, tractors ect.
You can do the whole composting thing – but that takes a LOT of hand labor.
Hand labor has it’s limits – you can only get so much work out of a human being’s muscles – hunger, thirst, lactic acid buildup in the muscles (the “burn” you feel when you do serious weightlifting – or when you do very hard physical labor) ect put absolute limits on how much one man or woman can produce in one day.
The capitalists also have an added incentive – less labor = greater surplus value.
From the working class angle, let’s face it, it’s a lot easier to do physical labor with mechanical assistance.
It’s a whole hell of a lot easier to do carpentry with skillsaws than handsaws – or to have powerdrills instead of hand drills – or to use screwguns, nailguns and/or powder actuated tools instead of pounding in nails with a hammer.
Do we really think that those of us who do manual labor are better off working from dawn to dusk with handtools – or using the benefits of modern technology to shorten the workday, and leave more leisure time for, among other things, study and participation in political life???
Not to mention the fact that the effective worklife of a manual laborer is short – after a certain point, your body just wears out!
But, with power tools, manual workers get a longer worklife – your body isn’t totally wasted at 30 like it is if you work with hand tools.
Maybe those of y’all who work behind a desk, for whom manual work is some kind of weekend hobby, might not understand that.
But those of us who spend our days driving a truck, or up on a stepladder with a drill in our hands, or harvesting crops on a farm – we understand the importance of labor saving technology really well.
Of course,under capitalism,labor saving technology = layoffs.
But wasn’t communism SUPPOSED TO MEAN that labor saving technology = more leisure time and a better quality of life for manual workers????
I always thought that was one of the big appeals of communism (it sure as hell is to me!!!)
But now we’re saying that communism = HARDER LABOR – no more harvesting machines, go back to the machete… no more tractors, get out the plow and the plowhorse (or pull the plow yourself – or plow with a garden hoe).
How the hell is that emancipitory for the manual segment of the working class?????
There ARE real issues with the end of cheap oil – but the answer is ALTERNATIVE FUELS for the machines, not going back to stoop labor!!!!!
Again, if the white collar folks for whom physical labor is some kind of weekend hobby want to mess around with the hand tools, be my guest!!!
But for those of us for whom manual labor is our livelyhood – we’d rather keep the power tools, if ya don’t mind!!!
And, for the record, the Afro Cuban macheteros have “voted with their feet” (or I should say “voted with their rubber inner tubes”) against stoop labor.
Who do you think make the bulk of the folks who risk their lifes floating across the Straigts of Florida in little ghetto liferafts????
Not to mention the bulk of the hoodlums, black marketeers, currency speculators and prostitutes in Havana and the other “special period” tourism cities????
For them, even the meanest urban poverty is better than a life of rural drudgery – no matter what romanticist bullshit the white collar Gallego Cubans in the big cities have to say!!!!
Again, it is way too goddamned easy to romanticize stoop labor and demonize labor saving technology if YOU AREN’T THE ONE DOING THE STOOP LABOR!!!!!!!
Again, go out there and ask an immigrant just how damned wonderful hard physical labor on a Third World farm with no modern fertilizer and no trucks or tractors is!!!
The very fact that they risked life and limb to get here – and the fact that even the worst American ghetto deprivation and hard work is 1000 times better than staying on the farm back home – SHOULD answer that question for ya!!!
gangbox said
For the record, I didn’t mean for those smilie faces to come out there – that was wordpress that put them there, not me!!!
Mike E said
If you put a “)” in your post, put a space in front of it.
BobH said
Gangbox,
I think you are being extremely mechanical (pun intended) here; you are saying there are only two ways of doing things, the highly mechanized, fossil fuel intensive way, or back-breaking peasant labor. At no point do you address, or even seem aware of, the looming crises of soil depletion, desertification, aquifer depletion, rising oil prices, etc. which threaten to undermine the entire system of mechanized agriculture and monocrop production which you are idealizing. This is about the potential for, and actual, famine, not back-to-the-land middle class fantasies.
I think your postings are full of false dicotomies. For example, when you say:
You can do the whole composting thing – but that takes a LOT of hand labor.
That implies it’s impossible for large-scale urban recycling of organic waste for composting in a centralized, and mechanized way, as a step towards replacing fossil-fuel fertilizers and dealing with soil depletion. Since it’s not been profitable to do so, clearly this is one example of how food/fertilizer production has a political dimension. Or are you arguing that only profitable methods of production are practical? We know where that leads.
Similarly with your point about people fleeing rural poverty for the relative improvement of urban poverty; you ignore the whole role of coercion in getting peasants off the land, from the enclosure acts to NAFTA making subsistence agriculture impossible, etc.
This is not about labor-saving machinery, which I have no quarrel with in principle; it’s about whether that machinery is sustainable for the long haul.
Ironically, the friend who’s helping me start my milpa is an immigrant construction worker who misses life back on the farm, but has kids here now so there’s not much chance of going back to that life. Guess he’s romanticizing too.
personally political said
“And even after the revolition, we will still have a division of labor – which means farmers and farm laborers will farm, truckers will haul the produce to us, and we’ll get it at some post revolutionary version of a supermarket.”
Ladies and gentlemen, this statement in a nutshell is why anarchist ideas are rising and leftist ideas are crashing to the ground. This axiom goes a long way in explaining the horrors of the 20th century. I thank you oh vanguard and voluntarist(cause thats the definition of a vanguard) for such a fine illustration of stupidity.
gangbox said
Mike E
Thanks for the technical advice!
BobH
I very clearly understand the problems regarding oil shortages, topsoil erosion, overuse of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, antibiotics and synthetic estrogens in the food supply ect.
And all of those are TECHNICAL problems.
Which have TECHNOLOGICAL solutions.
You yourself gave the example of the use of municipal household waste as a fertilizer source
NYC happens to have a large and elaborate Department of Sanitation, paralleled by a dense network of 3 major and over 180 minor trade waste hauling contractors – under our rule, that whole system could be unified and used to, among other tasks, collect household and restaurant waste, transport it to a central processing plant, compost it and then have over-the-road waste hauling trucks take it out to the farms Upstate and in Long Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania ect.
But again, that’s a TECHNOLOGICAL solution!!!
Setting up “milpas” here in America, however, is NOT a solution.
Dude, the material reason why the US government is able to use the PL 480 program to drive farmers out of business all over the Third World is because AMERICAN AGRUCULTURE IS MECHANIZED!!!
In other words, for example – an American farmer with his/her tractor actually has lower unit labor costs for a bushel of corn than a Mexican ejido where the farmers and their families pick the corn by hand.
Mexican hourly labor costs are a whole hell of a lot lower than American, but the American farmer harvests a whole hell of a lot more corn in that hour.
In other words, mechanized farming is indisputibly better and more efficient.
Period.
Full Stop.
End of Sentence.
End of Paragraph.
End of Story.
Maybe some folks like your buddy miss that way of life (although I bet a lot of folks – especially the younger ones – actually prefer the urban excitement, greater earning potential and the fact that even the hardest work here is easier than picking corn by hand from dawn to dusk back home!!!), but at the end of the day, American mechanized corn farms are driving ejidos out of business for a cold hard reason.
Now, in a world run by us, we’ll have to feed the world (and, with lower infant mortality and a lower death rate from disease, plus longer life expectancies, we’ll have a whole lot more mouths to feed in pretty short order).
Not to mention we’ll need to free all that underutilized excess labor trapped in backwards smallholder agriculture, so as to develop urban industry, transport, construction and the service sector.
And, to enable the workers to actually participate in that “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” set up in their names, we’ll need a shorter less intensive work day.
And you need machines to do that, BobH!!!!
If you spend 12 hours a day digging foundation holes with a shovel, you will neither have the time nor energy to participate in public administration, or even to educate yourself about what’s going on in the political life of your society.
On the other hand, if you spend 6 hours in the cab of a power shovel (where the hydraulics do the work, and all you have to do is turn the levers thus and so to get the dirt out of the ground and into the back of the dumptruck), you’ll have lots of free time and energy to do after work political activities.
Again, maybe you don’t get this because you don’t do physical labor for a living, but it’s pretty damned basic to me (I “bellyfeel” it, to use an Orwellism!!!)
The same goes with my brothers and sisters on the farm – even with machines, they work long and hard, but with hand labor, they are dead on their feet at the end of their long workday.
Remember, Australian canecutters, who cut the cane with mechanical harvesters (cause Australian cane farms use unionized – and largely White – labor, so high labor costs made mechanication necessary and profitable for the plantion owners there) and work and 8 hour day, are much more in a position to participate in public affairs in Queensland, as opposed to their counterparts in Cuba.
Cane plantation workers in Cuba work a 12 hour workday, and (since Mikhail Gorbachev cut off the subsidies in 1988) they’ve gone back to hand labor.
Worse yet, they don’t get paid by the hour, they get paid by the piece, based on how much weight they’ve cut.
Now, as a non manual laborer, you probably don’t quite understand just how brutal piecework is.
It priviliges younger stronger male workers (and even they pay for that privlige in blood – from injuries and shorter lifespans) and it puts a brutal spirit of mutual competition and war-of-all-against-all onto the jobsite.
Again, BobH, that’s what the type of farming you advocate is actually like on the ground!!!!
Oh, and I forgot to mention, Cuba isn’t even a socialist country!!!
They’re state capitalist – but a special type of state capitalism, very much like China or North Korea or Vietnam, where the economy and the state are run by an entity that calls itself a “communist party” but really carries out a capitalist line on behalf of a parasitic exploiting state bureaucracy.
Which explains why the Castro dynasty and their Gallego lackeys don’t care about making manual laborers (in particular BLACK manual laborers!!!) lives more bearable.
But what’s our excuse???
Isn’t the whole POINT of communism to break down the division between mental and manual labor???
And to carry out that task in large part by having a shorter and less intensive workday for manual workers???
That’s the kind of communism I fight for and believe in!!!!
And I have absolutely no interest in your milpaized stoop labor machete “communism”!!!!
gangbox said
Personally political,
What exactly is “stupid” about recognizing cold hard FACTS about the type of specialized labor that is requried to run a modern economy (no matter what kind of social system is in the saddle ) ????
Ever seen a kangaroo crane?
If you live in a major city with lots of hirise buildings, you have
That’s the big cranes they use to lift material from the street to the upper levels – they call em “kangaroos” cause that’s what they look like from a distance.
You cannot let just any random guy or girl off the street run one of those bad boys – or bad things will happen very quickly (when a kangaroo catastrophically fails, big things get crushed and men and women die)
So, no matter what social system we live under, you’ll need specialized people (called “operating engineers” here in the US) to run those things.
The same goes for many other tasks – from fixing copy machines to operating CAT scanners to taking care of autistic kids to operating waste treatment machinery to treating mentally ill senior citizens to cutting meat for retail sales to installing glass doors, there are many jobs that require extensive specialized training.
And I haven’t even gotten into the liberal professions (law, medicine ect) here.
Ever seen an occupational dictionary???
That’s a list of every title in this country – and, in an advanced country like ours, it has a lot of entries.
Do you honestly think we could run a society like this even for a day (or even an hour) without occupational specialization???
Now I know some utopian folks build castles in the air and imagine a perfect world – and in that utopian world, anything can happen.
But in the real world, where kids have to be taught reading and math, sewage has to be treated, bread has to be cooked, steel has to be made in blast furnaces and premature babies need their incubators maintained, we are governed by certain iron realities.
Now, one of the cool things about being a skilled tradesperson in this society is that the bourgeoisie needs people like me to build stuff for them, and some of the more skilled of us learn how to train, supervise and coordinate other skilled workers to build stuff.
So, the enemy taught me some of the basic principles of organizing people and material to get tasks accomplished.
This grounds me from some of the more elaborate flights of fancy that some other revolutionaries who are less grounded in the realities of material production than I am.
gangbox said
Personally political,
What exactly is “stupid” about recognizing cold hard FACTS about the type of specialized labor that is requried to run a modern economy (no matter what kind of social system is in the saddle ) ????
Ever seen a kangaroo crane?
If you live in a major city with lots of hirise buildings, you have
That’s the big cranes they use to lift material from the street to the upper levels – they call em “kangaroos” cause that’s what they look like from a distance.
You cannot let just any random guy or girl off the street run one of those bad boys – or bad things will happen very quickly (when a kangaroo catastrophically fails, big things get crushed and men and women die)
So, no matter what social system we live under, you’ll need specialized people (called “operating engineers” here in the US) to run those things.
The same goes for many other tasks – from fixing copy machines to operating CAT scanners to taking care of autistic kids to operating waste treatment machinery to treating mentally ill senior citizens to cutting meat for retail sales to installing glass doors, there are many jobs that require extensive specialized training.
And I haven’t even gotten into the liberal professions (law, medicine ect) here.
Ever seen an occupational dictionary???
That’s a list of every title in this country – and, in an advanced country like ours, it has a lot of entries.
Do you honestly think we could run a society like this even for a day (or even an hour) without occupational specialization???
Now I know some utopian folks build castles in the air and imagine a perfect world – and in that utopian world, anything can happen.
But in the real world, where kids have to be taught reading and math, sewage has to be treated, bread has to be cooked, steel has to be made in blast furnaces and premature babies need their incubators maintained, we are governed by certain iron realities.
Now, one of the cool things about being a skilled tradesperson in this society is that the bourgeoisie needs people like me to build stuff for them, and some of the more skilled of us learn how to train, supervise and coordinate other skilled workers to build stuff.
So, the enemy taught me some of the basic principles of organizing people and material to get tasks accomplished.
This grounds me from some of the more elaborate flights of fancy that some other revolutionaries who are less grounded in the realities of material production than I am.
Cassius Ghost said
Nobody is talking about trashing those treasured technological wonders of the “advanced worker” or forcing them into “stoop labor” in some field. At least not among anything I’ve ever read from Stan Goff, but I would personally have no problem telling George Bush that he can’t use a chain saw anymore at his future gulag at Crawford Ranch. Just kidding.
Energy and food autonomy, on an individual level is a contradiction in any socialized society, but the kernal of that life-style also is very vital and viral, among the oppressed, any real revolutionary ideal worth it’s salt, takes hold among the people, no matter the diktats of any political elite.
Energy and food re-localization, building as autonomous as possible, designed in social clusters – to thrive and grow exponentially is already taking hold among the people, witness the “greenwashing of the corporations” taking place right now.
Here is another link worth readers studied look, rather than the callous disdain exemplified by some alleged “communist” commentators on this site. I don’t give a bowel movement if I’m called an “parasitic opportunist” or an “economist”!
You may not think the food and energy autonomy movement is anything, but the corporations know it’s coming:
Here is the link: http://www.counterpunch.org/cox04222008.html
Totalitarians, authoritarians, name your oppressor – even I dare say the technocrats and “skilled” workers” despise even undertaking the hard work of organizing the oppressed. When the oppressed rise up and begin to organize themselves, even to the point of food battalions in Civil War Spain, the better according to the technocrats, to turn the oppressed into “machine operators” and “service workers” than lay into their hands the means to survive independent of any politboro, or messianic dear leader – communist, imperialist or otherwise.
The viral growth of energy and fuel autonomy among the oppressed compliments any communalist idealogy that holds to the ancient fundamentals of egalitarianism, liberty and fraternity (solidarity).
Growing semi-autonomous permacultural clusters in small neighborhoods, villages, rural communities is a more dangerous democratic fussillade than any amount of yelling religious or political dogma into the faces of the oppressors in the street. Yes, running in the streets is fun. Yes, it is inspiring to see the oppressed fight back – but unfortunately it is more like what some call You Tube footage of protests – “protest porn” something to note – when looking at the enormous ability to philosophize on “how to fuck” than how to socially grow the basics of food and fuel and build the potential for revolutionary base areas among and for the people.
“Traveling lightly” means acknowledging that a “long march” cannot be made without the support of fertile base areas, capable of going, if not already autonomous, and nurtured to go on thriving, even as class society breaks down. Yeah, that’s how far behind the RCPUSA is, looting supermarkets isn’t going to help people. Cheerleading and telling “yeah, we bad” stories of guns and bloodshed is not going to help the oppressed survive even one reactionary pogrom, purge or round-up and fundamentally it’s not going to help the self-styled revolutionaires.
Reading some of the technocratic meanderings, in fear of hard manual labor (which BTW is healthy, self-administered with plenty of self pacing breaks) is humorous. Almost as humorous as the “how to fuck” stuff. Why not be honest about it? I’m going to sit in my tower crane and smash them damn cane cutters and hay bailing hay seeds below if I can’t have this toy to lord it over everybody on the job site.
Why do we play right into the hands of the social reactionaries?
Here’s another technological, cornucopian scheme – while the polar ice caps melt away, wiping out penguins, polar bears, eskimos and inuits – forcing indigenous people to travel south or be obliterated. Let’s plan on transporting energy resources through the “new trade routes” and while we’re at it let’s drill into the arctic ocean floor and extract any mineral wealth there.
Who cares if billions are starving for fructose sugar and corn starch additives? Let them eat some petrochemical soaked sterile top soil.
Old man Mao had a thing or two to say about “social-imperialists” and just how did he convince a whole nation of peasants to rise up and drive out not just the Japanese invaders, but reactionary nationalists like Chiang Kai-Shek (sp? – by cultivating a personality cult around him?
Uhmmmmmm ….
“Not one thread, or needle will be stolen from the people”, uhmmmmmm ….
BobH said
Gangbox,
I don’t have any problem with technology or mechanization — I use power tools when needed. Nor do I advocate a de-mechanized society; if we are going to survive climate change, etc. we are going to have to re-engineer cities to be extremely efficient in terms of self-cooling/heating buildings, power usage, recycling organic waste into fertilizer, etc. All of that will require the development of new technology. The issue, of course, is that under capitalism it’s not profitable, such large scale planning just isn’t feasible, etc. So on that we probably agree.
On the issue of food, in the long run it will probably be possible to produce everything we need to live from algae, artificial meat, etc. (although I imagine fresh tomatoes will still be in demand). However, that isn’t possible yet, and our food comes from soil and water and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
The kernel of our disagreement is when you say: “In other words, mechanized farming is indisputibly better and more efficient.” This is a relative truth (yes, mechanized monoculture farming is more productive than non-mechanized farming in the short run) but you treat it like an absolute truth. You acknowledge that soil erosion, etc. is a problem, but only make a hand-waving argument about technical solutions.
The milpa system is time-tested over thousands of years; it is sustainable, it does not destroy the soil, etc. Native Americans were far better nourished by this system than their descendents under modern capitalism. Mechanized agriculture has been steadily destroying topsoil for the last hundred years; in the short lifespan of the “Green Revolution” serious limitations are clearly appearing, as Stan and many others have written about extensively. Long-term sustainability is really questionable at best with monocrop farming.
Another thing I object to in your argument is the assumptions about the division of labor. Subsisten agriculture is not the same thing as subsistence agriculture + surplus value for the landlord. Canecutting by hand to feed a global marketplace is no doubt worse in human cost than mechanized cancutting. That is entirely different, though, from urban community gardens for direct consumption and generating some social surplus. That’s worked rather well in Cuba, by all accounts, and I haven’t seen a lot of stunted, maimed people working at gunpoint in community gardens I’ve seen in the U.S. The question is, how to scale permaculture to minimize the labor time, how to best utilize technology to do so, etc. I think there is a false dicotomy here between everyone becoming peasants or hunter gatherers, the way some Greens advocate, or merely nationalizing Archer-Daniel-Midlands and merrily feeding the world — better living through socialist chemistry. I object to the latter because there are clear indications this form of technology is not sustainable, indeed, it’s approaching disaster.
Nando said
the issue here is also imperialism. What kind of an economy, what kind of a world position, what kind of resource “inputs” are needed to maintain the current form of “modern agriculture.”
Clearly we need to return to a form of “bioregionalism” — where we eat what is grown around us, by people around us.
When the West German parties campaigned in East Germany for the first time…. the Christian Democratic party handed out bananas and packages coffee (stamped with their party logo). It made me think: what does that say about their economic promises? Coffee and bananas aren’t grown in West Germany (obviously)…. their pitch really was “our western spheres of influence are more valuable than the eastern Soviet spheres of influence… if you come with the West you get the fruit of all that western colonialism that flows into modern West Germany.” It was a crude pitch based on “food politics” of an imperialist kind.
We need an approach that produces nutritious and abundant food, in ways that are (a) environmentally sustainable (in use of water, in terms of long term chemical impact, in preservation of top soil etc.) and that (b) ruptures with the fundamental inequalities built into imperialism, and that (c) help us move toward transforming the rural/urban contradictions in directions that move toward livable conditions for both farmers and urban people. (i.e. we have to end the deadend isolation of rural life, and the destructive sprawl of surbanity — creating smaller, more ocmpact cities, scattered throughout a culturally livable rural landscape, with preserved wilderness and parkland.)
The high productivity of the current U.S. mode of agriculture is tied to the imperialist status and oppressive world conditions in many ways.
No one is arguing for primitivism — we need to argue for a socialism that is not merely a slight change from capitalism.
gangbox said
BobH,
I get very uncomfortable with communists who romanticize the past.
The milpas were part of subsistance agriculture – that was the basis of the Native American economy, and because of the tiny surplus they got from that primitive economic base, they were not able to advance technologically as civilizations.
This primitive economic base, and the lack of any serious industry besides handicrafts, led them to trying to fight factory made bolt action rifles with homemade bows and arrows… and we all know how well THAT worked out!!!!
And, for the record, as brutally oppressed as the Native peoples are under capitalism, they live longer now, even in their deep poverty, thanks to the few benefits of modern industry and medicine AND mechanized agriculture that trickle down to them, than they ever did in the milpa days – so please don’t try and rewrite history through a semtimental primitivist lens!!!!
I just had to make that point – cause so many White leftists sentimentalize a mythological “Noble Indian” past that JUST DID NOT EXIST IN THE REAL WORLD!!!!
Remember – Milpas = bows and arrows = inability to resist invaasion and genocide!!!!
On the whole urban gardening piece, frankly, I’m not feeling it.
I don’t know about you, but I work hard at my job, and I am NOT interested in coming home after a hard day’s work installing furniture to spend another half doing market gardening.
Maybe for the white collar folks who sit at a desk and don’t burn up any calories that might work – but not for those of us who actually produce surplus value.
And even for the white collar folks, or specifically the pink collar segment (that is, women) they already have the goddamned Double Day!!!
They have to work 8 hours at their job, and then another full day’s work of childcare, housework and cooking at home – do you REALLY want them to work another half day at amateur farming????
If so, that’s massively sexist….
And, on the real, in state capitalist Cuba, women DO get stuck with that – having to spend hours in line at the state stores and/or hours doing urban gardening, on top of their job and the Double Day.
In a world like that, when the hell would working class women ever get to participate in public life in any meaningful way????
Of course, that works out fine for the Castro Dynasty, cause, as state capitalists, they WANT THE CUBAN WORKERS TO BE POLITICALLY INERT… other than as passive spectators at the marathon 8 hour boring speeches!!!!
And the whole bust your ass at work, and then go off and do amateur farming piece is just NOT EMANCIPATORY for the working class!!
Or amateur construction – the living horror that is the Minibrigade program, where they send untrained folks to do heavy concrete construction building public housing projects.
Concrete gang work is hard even for those of us who graduated from Carpenter School – for amateurs, it’s hell, and a very dangerous hell at that (cause even us professionals get hurt and killed on jobs like that – and I have the scars on my own body to prove that!!!)
Oh yeah, and on top of all that unpaid labor to benefit the Cuban capitalist state, the women get stuck with the Double Day too!!!
What the hell is so emancipatory about that???
In a real way, present day capitalism is better (in terms of being slightly less hellish) better enough for many Cuban workers (over 3 million – and there are only 12 million Cubans on the whole planet!!!) to risk their lives to flee to monopoly capitalist America, where at least you actually get PAID if you work OT!!!!
Again, there isn’t a damned thing liberatory about mandatory urban market gardening – it’s a great HOBBY for those with the free time and energy to do it, but it is NOT a viable way to feed the cities.
And it’s not even communist – hell, militarist Japan did urban gardening during WW II (they even converted the Tokyo Stadium into a garden for the duration) – but that was the wartime survival desperation of an imperialist state in a losing war, not a way forward for humanity.
Again, just to make it crystal clear, for those of us in the manual labor force (that is the folks who make the surplus value that sustains the rest of y’all – and the folks who feed, clothe and supply you with everything you use, including the computer you’re reading this on, and the power plant that powers that computer, and the electric wires that brought the power from the plant to your apartment!!!) the key task is REDUCING NECESSARY LABOR TIME!!!
That is, us getting a shorter less intensive workday, so, among other things, we can actually get to rule the Dictatorship of the Proletariat set up in our name, rather than having condescing saviours ruling on our behalf!!!
Ya feel me, comrades????
So, in closing, restoring stoop labor agriculture would be a step BACKWARDS for humanity (in particular for the working class that you all claim to speak for!!!)
To feed humanity, let alone to move forwards to revolution, the DoP, socialism and communism, we have to save mechanized modern agriculture, by any and all means necessary!!!
Nando,
That bioregionalism thing is anarchist, an attempt to artificially prop up smallholder farming in an era where the division of labor has decisively won out.
There’s a REASON the East German workers rejected East German state capitalism in favor of the West German monopoly variety – among other things, the West German bourgiosie could offer them a far better life than the state capitalist party bosses of the East.
And yes, that means imported coffee and bananas!!!
What’s so awful about that????
Tropical countries grow coffee and bananas,and export it to countries who don’t.
The only bad thing is, today, under imperialism, the Third World countries get swindled out of their resources – in a communist world, there would be balanced world trade, so countries could do what they do best, and trade for what they don’t make.
I mean really, do you HONESTLY want to live in an autarkist hell like North Korea, another state capitalist regime where they try and “do for self” so everybody has to wear ugly coal tar polyester work clothes (except for Kim Jong Il and his armed retainers, lackeyes and mistresses,of course – THEY get high quality cotton clothes from Europe!!!!)
That is not emancipation – that is a step BACKWARDS for humanity.
Honestly, I’d hate to live under your “communism” Nando (or BobH’s for that matter) cause it sure sounds like me and people like me would have a 12 hour workday, and would live in squalor and deprivation.
Of course I’m sure not ALL of the people would live like that – the tiny surplus that comes from smallholder agriculture and hand labor industry would go up to a few Raul Castros or Kim Jong Ils, who would live like gods while we starved like serfs!!!!)
2 million+ North Koreans and 3 million+ Cubans have voted with their feet against that neomedival shit – and but for the brutal efficiency of the North Korean NSA and the Cuban DGI, even more would have – and I’m with them on that!!!
personally political said
Gangman some of us don’t care for the continuation of this suicidal mission called civilization, also get over yourself with this forward and backward bullshit, the only direction humans move in is circles with the intervening paradoxes of nothingness that make up existence. The only ones who believe in forward and backward marches are you religious metaphyisicians. Also who the fuck are you to say that native americans are better off under modernity. There are plenty of native americans who would slap you to the side of your head for such a comment. Better and worse can only be defined by context, you on the other hand are no different than a christian by trying to determine outside of a context what is better and worse for a persons or people, this is exactly what leads to among other things the residential schools.
What people who are serious about liberty want is the self management of daily life on contextual and individual terms, this will likely mean something small scale and low tech, cause really such a method is the only proven one in history that brings out egalitarian systems, no centralized anything has ever done this. I can tell you I will have a much bigger smile on my face when the food I consume is directly relative to me or those around me, not a product of some alien ghost called screwmanity. No more growing,picking, killing for those who have no relation to me and certainly no more shit from them either(literally)
On a closing note you’d do well to crack open Bill Mollison’s book on permaculture. Its been the biggest event in none toil subsistence since hunting and gathering, and like the latter one can find daily self enjoyment out of it.
zerohour said
I have to admit, I don’t know much about the politics of food so I’m learning quite a bit from this discussion. But I have to disagree strongly with Personally Political’s obvious ignorance of the realities of Native American culture and vague use, and rejection, of “civilization.”
Native Americans are not a homogeneous group. In addition to geographic dispersion, and historical differences between tribes/nations, 80% of Native Americans report being of mixed heritage, that is, a product of marriage with non-Natives not just between Natives of other nations, and most live in the cities, not reservations. There is a debate over racial authenticity which is phrased as “pure bloods vs. part-bloods” or the “blood quantum” debate for short. The argument holds that any Native with one drop of “white blood” is not a true Native, so even the question of who a Native American is is hotly debated from within those communities. The positions are polarized between genetic lineage or faithful observance of “traditional ways.” Even cultural observance is a hybrid gesture, since many Native-Americans [mainly the "part-bloods"] live a significant part of their lives within mainstream US culture ans are largely shaped by it.
Try selling Native Americans a vision of liberation which includes rejecting some trappings of “civilization” [western, industrial capitalist kind I take it] like indoor plumbing, electricity and the various things that require electricity like lighting, telephones, modern refrigeration, power tools, not to mention cars, and I think you’re the one who’s going to get slapped in the head. Not to say that ecologically and socially harmful technology shouldn’t be replaced, but advocating a return to some pre-Columbian paradise is not going to fly as an workable alternative.
This romanticized, primitivist vision is condescending and assumes that indigenous peoples are unwilling to adopt anything outside of their traditional norms and are unable to evaluate their effects for themselves. History has proven both wrong. Admittedly, western civilization was imposed at the point of a gun, but a genuine revolutionary politics would advocate a policy of genuine communication, learning and exchange. If you believe that any such interaction is inherently oppressive, that is more the result of risk aversion than concrete analysis. The other alternative will lead Native Americans to a life of isolation and ignorance.
zerohour said
I have to admit, I don’t know much about the politics of food so I’m learning quite a bit from this discussion. But I have to disagree strongly with Personally Political’s obvious ignorance of the realities of Native American culture and vague use, and rejection, of “civilization.”
Native Americans are not a homogeneous group. In addition to geographic dispersion, and historical differences between tribes/nations, 80% of Native Americans report being of mixed heritage, that is, a product of marriage with non-Natives not just between Natives of other nations, and most live in the cities, not reservations. There is a debate over racial authenticity which is phrased as “pure bloods vs. part-bloods” or the “blood quantum” debate for short. The argument holds that any Native with one drop of “white blood” is not a true Native, so even the question of who a Native American is is hotly debated from within those communities. The positions are polarized between genetic lineage or faithful observance of “traditional ways.” Even cultural observance is a hybrid gesture, since many Native-Americans [mainly the "part-bloods"] live a significant part of their lives within mainstream US culture ans are largely shaped by it.
Try selling Native Americans a vision of liberation which includes rejecting some trappings of “civilization” [western, industrial capitalist kind I take it] like indoor plumbing, electricity and the various things that require electricity like lighting, telephones, modern refrigeration, power tools, not to mention cars, and I think you’re the one who’s going to get slapped in the head. Not to say that ecologically and socially harmful technology shouldn’t be replaced, but advocating a return to some pre-Columbian paradise is not going to fly as an workable alternative, especially to those who are its supposed beneficiaries.
This romanticized, primitivist vision is condescending and assumes that indigenous peoples are unwilling to adopt anything outside of their traditional norms and are unable to evaluate their effects for themselves. History has proven both wrong. Admittedly, western civilization was imposed at the point of a gun, but a genuine revolutionary politics would advocate a policy of genuine communication, learning and exchange. If you believe that any such interaction is inherently oppressive, that is more the result of risk aversion than concrete analysis. The other alternative will lead Native Americans to a life of isolation and ignorance.
zerohour said
Please delete post #22.
gangbox said
Zerohour,
I just have to cosign your post here – you’re absolutely 1000% right about the whole primitivist thing – and how that is NOT a way forward for Native peoples.
personally political said
Zerohour
I was by no means saying that native americans want to go “back” or suggesting that they reject the everydayness of modernity, what is was strictly going after was the notion provided by presumably a non native that they are better off today. It is strictly that that my point addressed. As I said forward and backward are modern ideological euphemisms, all in all there is a basic fondness perhaps by most natives for the past. That’s not necessarily to imply that they are green anarchist agents. That being said a number take ideas of local subsistence and respect for the land seriously, note the amount of native groups that resist mining, not all but a lot. I’m not selling any liberation to native Americans or any other group, they will define it themselves, if you are looking for crude modernist centralizing agents however you might have to look elsewhere.
As for the blood thing I live in Canada so the context is a bit different.
Jaroslav said
Haven’t read everything on this thread, but I’m gonna jump in real quick on this Native peoples thing.
First of all let’s keep in mind the fact that Native Americans (here meaning North, Central, & South) had a healthier life in terms of nutritional intake pre-Columbus compared to today. That time was not a paradise, but it’s worth keeping mind that was less of a hell than today is for Native Americans.
Second, & this I believe is specific to the US, we need to remember what the word ‘traditional’ & ‘progressive’ means in relation to Native issues. In this context ‘progressive’ means those who go along with the BIA-administered ‘tribal governments’ sponsored by the genocidal US Euroamerican ruling class. Whereas ‘traditionals’ are those who wish to resume sovereign self-government, for the most part picking up where they left off. This terminology dates mainly from the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. It does not mean that ‘traditionals’ are technology-hating primitivists, nor that ‘progressives’ are progressive in the common sense of ‘leftist reformists or revolutionaries’.
Further, I STRONGLY object to the implication (hopefully Zerohour you didn’t actually mean to imply this) that ‘genuine communication, learning and exchange’ were not part of most Native North American societies during their self-governing years. As you yourself noted they are not a homogenous, well they are not & never have been isolated either. There has always been ‘genuine communication, learning and exchange’ in this hemisphere. In fact many US highways are built on the old trade routes & US cities on top of Native cities. And speaking of agriculture, a full 2/3 of food crops in use today were developed by Native peoples in this hemisphere, including such marginal ethnic foods as corn, tomatoes, & potatoes. This whole picture of a few stray hunter-gatherers running around is straight up false. The approach of ‘genuine communication, learning and exchange’ was also initially extended to the European immigrants, but they decided to massacre people instead.
And please don’t mix things up for our friend from Canada. ‘Blood quantum’ is a criteria for federally-recognised ‘tribal’ membership that was initiated by the US government, & is the fraction of genes from a specific ‘tribe’ (not the sum total of Native North American genes). Pre-Columbus, most peoples had various methods of inter-marriage, adoption, ‘naturalisation’ (i.e. becoming a ‘citizen’). There is an historical precedence of this being extended to those from outside the continent, not just individuals but large groups, e.g. runaway African slaves joining the Seminoles & other peoples from the Southeast region. As previously stated, Native Americans are not homogenous, & in addition there was the pressure exerted by near-total genocide, so many of the Native leaders have not gone against this ‘blood quantum’ thing. In any case it is a separate question from the fringe idea that anyone with ‘one drop of “white blood” is not truly Native’. At the same time, it is a correct observation that there is a debate over where one should draw the line, e.g. what if one only has ‘one drop of “Native blood”‘? There are also problems for many people with proving it one way or another, due to all the kidnappings (to white schools & adoptive parents).
And to be clear, Personally Political, although I agree it’s wrong to view human history as going ‘forwards’ & ‘backwards’, neither do I think we go in circles. Well both views are quite simplified. It’s an interesting philosophical question to pursue. With regards to local agriculture (& production in general), I think that this is in general a good goal to have. However I don’t say that because of feelings I get or distaste for ‘alien screwmanity ghosts’; rather I say that because it’s a waste of labour, fuel, energy, road use, etc to ship everything all over the place unnecessarily.
As a communist I think that we need to get to a situation where there is a global society of freely associating people, with no classes & no state(s). That’s what ‘communist society’ means. I’m not sure exactly what that will look like in terms of centralised or decentralised organisation. But I do think that (& I know this seems self-contradictory on the surface level) in order to get there, we need a mostly centrally-organised/coordinated revolution, & a transition phase between revolution & communism called ’socialism’ which needs a mostly centralist state at the beginning, & this state must be downsized as soon as possible. That’s all very general, but there you go anyway.
zerohour said
“Further, I STRONGLY object to the implication (hopefully Zerohour you didn’t actually mean to imply this) that ‘genuine communication, learning and exchange’ were not part of most Native North American societies during their self-governing years.”
If you read the whole passage I was counterposing revolutionary orientation towards Native peoples to that of western imperialism.
Thanks for providing clarifying the “blood quantum” issue, but I have already heard it being used among “full-blooded” Native Americans to deny any credibility to anyone who is partially non-Native. Regardless of its original application it has taken on a more divisive form.
gangbox said
I can see some folks here need a Reality Check on the Native American question.
I know a lot of White leftists like to romanticize the Native communities and project their fantasies of an ideal primitive pre capitalist society on the live reality of Native Americans.
And no, the real world is never allowed to get in the way of the fairy tale.
Fact, North American Native people live longer, have better medical care, and nutrition, and have a lower maternal death rate and infant mortality rate, than they did back in the pre conquest era.
They’re also at the bottom of the barrel in all those catagories in America and Canada – and THAT’S the issue, not some mythological paradise lost!!!
Now, let’s talk about blood quantum.
That was a concept imposed on Native Americans by the US Army’s Bureau of Indian Affairs in 1868 (the BIA still exists – it’s been a part of the Dept of Interior since the end of the Indian Wars in 1890, and the BIA, and it’s armed wing, the BIA Police, still the main instrument the feds use to repress Native Americans)
Different Native peoples had different ways of defining tribal membership, but it was possible to be totally non Native ethnically and still be a full member of a tribe
For instance, the White “renegades” – mostly White women, incidentally – who fled the English Colonies on the East Coast in the 1600’s and joined Native tribes, or the escaped slaves who joined with the Seminoles in Florida.
The Five Civilized Tribes in Georgia (who were later deported to Oklahoma by President Jackson – in the “trail of tears”) actually brought Black slaves from White slave traders.
But, those slaves were considered to be members of the tribe of their owner and, up until 1910, they had the status of full tribal members, irregardless of racial ancestry.
[the BIA "delisted" all Black members of the Five Civilized Tribes in that year - using the blood quantum argument]
But what is “blood quantum”???
Basically, it traces a person’s race through the ethnic origin of their ancesters – thus, if your father had a Cherokee father and mother, but your mother had a White father and a Cherokee mother,you are considered to be 75% Cherokee.
It’s similar to the “one drop rule” – that is, if you have any significant Black ancestry, you are Black.
Considering that history, it’s really odd how some Native American civil rights activists have latched on to the Blood Quantum theory and actually attack their opponents on the basis of blood quantum, rather than politically.
On the Native agriculture thing, let’s keep it real.
The Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 totally changed the Native farming question.
The BIA started forcing Native farmers who’s holdings were not commercially viable to rent their lands to White farmers with bigger more commerically viable holdings.
For instance,the Pine Ridge Lakotas of South Dakota had virtually every Native owned farm on their reservation rented out to White farmers.
And, as those farmers died off, the BIA divided up the farm into shares, to be doled out among the decendants.
For instance, if a farmer had 10 kids, they’d each get a 10% share of the rent the BIA collected on that land.
If one of those kids had 3 kids, their share would be spllit three ways among those kids.
So, you have White millionares paying rent to Lakotas on welfare (with the rent split so many ways that it’s not enough money for the Natives to live on).
In modern times, most of the Native nations have set up casinos on their reservations – for some of the smaller nations that are close to major cities, the bulk of their economy is built around casino gaming (for instance, both of Connecticut’s Native tribes – the Pequots and the Mohegans – have economies that are almost 100% based on their casinos).
Some of the Native nations also make a living selling untaxed cigarettes to non Natives (like the Mohawks – who’s Upstate New York reservation is the source of many of the bootleg cigarettes sold on the streets of New York City)
And some of the larger Native tribes out west make their money off extractive industries – mining, piping water to major cities ect – and commercial agrculture.
So, I hate to be the one to tell you this, the dreams of Hiawatha and his little corn garden are NOT the reality of Native American life today.
If we had the rev tomorrow, that would be the reality of how “Indian country” is.
And, on the real,I really don’t think those Navajo coal miners or Pequod craps dealers are particularly interested in a second career in subsistance farming!!!!
Nando said
I will respond to your points (which I think put forward obvious facts while missing central issues — including in particular that there are matters of culture, identity, and land involved in ending the unbroken mistreatment of various Native peoples, not just a matter of economic inequality.)
But for the moment, a side issue: your tone.
You are consistently insulting to everyone reading this site. You mischaracterize others in a truly intolerable way. Please stop it. It degrades our discussion even when the posts have information and ideas to engage.
Two suggestions: Stop talking to people like they are idiots. And tone down the constant emotionalism by limiting yourself to one exclamation point at a time!!!
Iris said
Gangbox, on another thread you said you follow Orwell’s guidelines for the essayist–I’m all for toning down latinization, but I don’t recall him being a frivolous sprinkler of punctuation…
personally political said
“Fact, North American Native people live longer, have better medical care, and nutrition, and have a lower maternal death rate and infant mortality rate, than they did back in the pre conquest era.”
There are of course a number of assumptions here that need to be tackled right off the bat. For one thing since when does length of life inherently mingle with quality of life. There are those who want to live forever, I find no curry with them. What is your criteria for better medical care? Is it long life which comes back to my first point, is it defined by more medical specialists(which is an issue in itself) I suppose there are merits to maternal and birth “rates” which I won’t poke to much fun at though within a modern context there is a lot of trade offs to look at. There’s one native american society I saw on a show that have a declining male population due to living next to an industrial site(see resisting mines). Overall these things in themselves do not account for better or worse off conditions, such things can only be defined by a context.
I don’t care for the blood argument as it is not the issue here.
gangbox said
Nando,
You know, militant African Americans often get criticized by White folks (and others) becase of their “tone”.
I don’t happen to think that’s a legitimate criticism – after 400 years, I think that we’ve kinda earned (n Public Enemy’s words) “a right to be hostile”.
And I really do have a serious problem with folks who romanticize Native American culture – it’s racist, and patronizing, and insulting to real live Native Americans.
So yeah, I do cop an attitude when I hear that.
Beyond that, I think that there is a whole lot wrong with the marxist left in general – pretty much everybody out their who’s frontin’ like they’re communists has, in esssence, betrayed the working class.
And yes, I do have a problem with that.
If I hurt your feelings, I’m truly and deeply sorry, because I do NOT like to insult people.
But I do have a problem with racism and with fake communism.
My anger is directed at THAT, not at you personally.
Just to make that point crystal clear!!!
But don’t get it twisted – I’m not going to apologize for my so called “tone”!!!!
gangbox said
Personally Political,
So, you’re saying that Native Americans were better off when they died in their 30’s, rather than getting to live into their 50’s, as they do now?
That’s a truly awful and appaling not to mention objectively racist) position to take – and I suspect that only a person who’s relatively priviliged (as in you have health insurance and adequate access to quality health care) would even make an amazingly arrogant statement like that!!!
The real issue with today’s Native American community is EQUALITY – that is, the fact that they have a lower standard of living and shorter lifespan than White folks.
Cassius Ghost said
An abstractual cognitive connection (prediction:
Overheard on a surveillance scanner with classified US military frequencies: “The red/revs in hotel 6 sector are out of food.”
“Any action orders?”
“No.”
“Repeat? Any action orders?”
“No, check, negative. Do nothing.”
“Why not?”
“C.I. reports that they are still having debates on earthworms making dirt. No known food supply lines available.”
“Let them eat the worms.”
“Roger that.”
From Goff’s text, and sorely neglected on this thread:
(begin Goff quote)
Food dependency has always been the most essential weapon of the oppressor. That applies to the abused wife who will be cast into penury if she leaves her abuser (we ask, “How will she eat?”); and it applies to the alienated suburban technodrone, who knows — deep down — that he doesn’t know how he would eat without money. It applies to the indigenous population forbidden to grow their traditional crops by colonial masters; kicked off the best arable land by colonial masters; made dependent on second-rate food exports from the colonising nation; etc. It applies to the yeoman farmer deprived of common land and forced into the pool of desperate, hungry, deracinated wage-slaves who staffed the first industrial factories. It applies to citizens of Zimbabwe forbidden by President Mugabe and his political clique to keep vegetable gardens in the yards of their urban and suburban homes.
“Self-determination,” that shopworn phrase used by right and left alike, is not practicaly feasible — in any guise whatsoever — without food independence. If someone else controls your access to food then you have, by definition, no self-determination. You can’t hold a strike without a strike fund. Why do you need a strike fund? So you can eat. Food independence — food autarky — is not possible without greater separation of food from the monetized economy: (money is a weapon of control, an entitlement against others).
There is quite simply no independence, and little hope of a sustained resistance, without food security. Nor is there any way to get there (to a state of food democracy or food security) without relocalization as our most fundamental precondition.
(end Goff quote)
I’m pretty disappointed with the way the discussion on this thread went, but heartened that so many at least put out some honestly held opinions.
Autonomy begins with growing food with your neighbors and comrades.
“Reconceive, Regroup for Revolution”
Kasama
personally political said
“So, you’re saying that Native Americans were better off when they died in their 30’s, rather than getting to live into their 50’s, as they do now?”
That’s a lovely straw person gangbox, unfortunately I have no inherent bias for what accounts for better and worse, only people with christian derived missionary positions care about imposing a generally idea of what is “good” for everyone.
Let’s pretend for a minute however that native american life really was hobbesian(it wans’t for those who have a basic knowledge of the history), how would those 30 year old natives on deaths door no that his is worse for them???
I unlike you don’t think that native american life pre conquest was objectively better, I do here an overwhelming amount however who say subjectively that it was, and that is really all that counts. You see I’m for people organizing their daily lives including what they think is contextually better or worse for them, you on the other hand will always be like many historical authoritarians who conquer people and tell them what is better for them. Vanguardists did kill a lot of indigenous societies after all, societies that we’re much closer to a communal everyday life then you capitalists wannabes.
Iris said
Isn’t one of the main issues with ‘romanticising’ [supposedly communal tribal life--which varied vastly by region] the assumption that Native peoples didn’t want any changes? I mean, the problem wasn’t that the white murderers brought steel needles and iron kettles and germ theory, it was that native people were forced to become dependent on them disproportionatly to the white dependence on natives–and were wiped out by disease and genocide. The problem with the romanticism is we assume there is a binary choice: ‘communal’ tribal living (which again, is no uniform or neccessarily pretty thing) or industrialized militarized western civ. Isn’t the point of being communist to put something radically new and better than either of these?
Iris said
In “Lies My Teacher Told Me”, the author says some really interesting and demystifying things about this romanticized vision of tribal life, and the bullshit myth of white savior settlers. “Guns, Germs, and Steel” is also fascinating, I’m reading that now.
BobH said
I haven’t had time to respond more thoroughly to the various point about food, oil and energy raised in this important topic, but I want to suggest reading “1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus” by Charles C. Mann. It’s a recent book that summarizes what archeologists are discovering about pre-Colombian civilization. From the blub on Amazon:
“1491 is not so much the story of a year, as of what that year stands for: the long-debated (and often-dismissed) question of what human civilization in the Americas was like before the Europeans crashed the party. The history books most Americans were (and still are) raised on describe the continents before Columbus as a vast, underused territory, sparsely populated by primitives whose cultures would inevitably bow before the advanced technologies of the Europeans. For decades, though, among the archaeologists, anthropologists, paleolinguists, and others whose discoveries Charles C. Mann brings together in 1491, different stories have been emerging. Among the revelations: the first Americans may not have come over the Bering land bridge around 12,000 B.C. but by boat along the Pacific coast 10 or even 20 thousand years earlier; the Americas were a far more urban, more populated, and more technologically advanced region than generally assumed; and the Indians, rather than living in static harmony with nature, radically engineered the landscape across the continents, to the point that even “timeless” natural features like the Amazon rainforest can be seen as products of human intervention.
Mann is well aware that much of the history he relates is necessarily speculative, the product of pot-shard interpretation and precise scientific measurements that often end up being radically revised in later decades. But the most compelling of his eye-opening revisionist stories are among the best-founded: the stories of early American-European contact. To many of those who were there, the earliest encounters felt more like a meeting of equals than one of natural domination. And those who came later and found an emptied landscape that seemed ripe for the taking, Mann argues convincingly, encountered not the natural and unchanging state of the native American, but the evidence of a sudden calamity: the ravages of what was likely the greatest epidemic in human history, the smallpox and other diseases introduced inadvertently by Europeans to a population without immunity, which swept through the Americas faster than the explorers who brought it, and left behind for their discovery a land that held only a shadow of the thriving cultures that it had sustained for centuries before.”
“Guns, Germs and Steel” has some interesting stuff in it, but it’s seriously flawed to anyone who knows a little about historical materialism. I’d suggest Jim Blaut’s “Eight Eurocentric Historians”, which discusses Diamond, among others.
My earlier point about milpas was that this is a time-tested, successful method of permaculture. I’m suggesting that in a post-oil and phosphate-mining economy, we’re going to have to apply a little “negation of the negation” to farming — returning to old methods informed by modern science and technique. Rather than maximize the self-destructive “efficience” Gangbox lionizes, we will have to balance sustainability with productivity.
Given that everyone needs food, and food politics is on the rise (as are food prices), it would make sense for communists to starting thinking (and maybe practising) some of these issue.
There are deeper issues here about the neutrality of technology that need to be addressed, I think. I hope to post more on that later.
personally political said
Guns Germs and Steel is really good (when ignoring Diamonds all to bourgeois conclusions). Good historical analysis, bad agency(just like marx).
Anyway no romanticizing here, I think there are things to learn from stateless societies and build on. Including those like the San who continue to fight for that way of life.
“I’m suggesting that in a post-oil and phosphate-mining economy, we’re going to have to apply a little “negation of the negation” to farming — returning to old methods informed by modern science and technique.”
Agreed though this will ultimately only be succesful if there is a non statist dispersal driven agency
Cassius Ghost said
I am strongly advocating rev/coms and red/blacks that learning permaculture techniques are more valuable in building base areas than running around throwing all forces into public street actions where highly visible people are thrown into the surveillance state.
It’s like using small radio transmitters in the jungles.
It’s like learning to be autonomous, with solar charged batteries – teaching others to “go off the grid” to live cheaply, live well – without all the daily grinds of wage-slavery. In order to learn more about making revolution.
It’s like learning food preservation techniques; canning, live fermentation, non refrigerated storage below ground …
How do you think the revolutionary armies that waged Peoples War so successfully in so many countries without deeply understanding these techniques – to feed, fight and maybe lead the people?
I think the state of maoist rev in the U.S. is so bad that preparing for a strategic “retreat” is necessary, especially in light of how the RCP has handled the kingdom for the last few years.
The resurgence of the “industrial proletariate” in this country is pretty unlikely – and while I do my best to inform and educate about good things happening like the dock workers strike along the west coast, the great upsurge among the immigrants in the streets and the developments in Nepal – until people see me practicing what I “preach” it’s just a series of interesting current events.
Remember the old PLA credo – “do not steal one needle or thread from the masses … etc.”
Consult your elders about old food growing and preservation techniques … they’ll love you for it and maybe understand or listen to what its all about.
It is a people thingee, not know-it-all junk.
Iris, thanks for the comments.
gangbox said
Cassius,
Speaking as one of those “Industrial Proletarians” you speak so disparigingly of, it has always amazed me how some folks who have benefited so much from industrialism are so quick to cling to an idealized primitivism.
Comrade, you are writing your post and reading mine on A COMPUTER – one of the highest achievements of modern industry!
That computer was made up of petrochemicals, copper, steel, glass and silicon – all of which were extracted from the four corners of the earth, taken to factories by boat, train and or truck, processed into usable products and taken again to yet another factory where they were assembled, then put on yet another boat, truck or train, taken to a warehouse and then hauled by yet another truck to the store where you brought them.
That computer is probably sitting on top of some desk or table, which again is a product of modern industry and logistics.
That table in turn is sitting in some kind of modern house or apartment building, an amazing achievement of technology, with materials hauled from the four corners of the world, and put together by industrial proletarians very much like me (hell, if you live in New York City, I personally might actually have been one of the proletarians that built the building you’re sitting in!!!)
And I could go on and on about this, but I just want to make it clear, you benefit greatly from industrialism – in fact, the very leisure time that enables you to have time to write posts here is a product of industrialism.
And yet you want to give that up for 14 hours a day in the fields growing crops by hand!!!
Hard to believe!!!
Unless, of course, YOU have no intention of giving up the benefits of industrialism for you and people of your class – you just want to take all of that away from the men and women who’s labor creates those wonders (that is, of course, the industrial proletariat you dislike so much!!!)
Well, I think I speak for the entire industrial proletariat (even those industrial proletarians who are in fact Native American) when I say “NO THANKS – we don’t want your voluntary simplicity, we already have enough problems with the mandatory kind imposed by the capitalists!!!”
gangbox said
As for the whole post oil era thing, I guess nobody here has ever heard of Tar Sands?
Or Coal?
Or Ethanol?
On the latter, for ethanol to be viable – and not to take up the whole earth’s food supply to provide our liquid fuel needs – we basically need to increase worldwide agricultural yields to American levels.
At present, the much maligned American farmers produce 40% of the entire world’s corn supply – that’s right, 1/10th of one percent of the world’s farmers, on 5% of the world’s landmass, produce 40% of the corn.
Basically, we need to rapidly mechanize all of the world’s agriculture – both to feed the world, and to fuel it.
And no, milpas are NOT going to do that – tractors and pesticides are!!!
Sam said
Gangbox,
Are you actually serious? Monocropping and pesticides? Factory farming? The horrendous subjugation of animals?
We need to move FAR beyond the United States system of agriculture. It’s completely unsustainable, and brutally exploitative. We need to stop importing food and diversify agriculture.
You think by industrializing agriculture in undeveloped countries, we will be able to fuel the world on ethanol? The amount of nutrients we can get from corn far exceeds the cost to get fuel from it. That’s a completely ridiculous assertion. Bio-fuels are not the answer to our energy problems.
Integrated pest management, NOT PESTICIDES. Sure we may have food but with your plan, we won’t have a planet to eat it on.
Sorry if all this has been covered already.
zerohour said
“Or Coal?”
Coal?
gangbox said
Sam, and ZeroHour
Yes, I am dead serious.
About industrial agriculture (and yes, with the pesticides too).
About Ethanol.
About Coal.
As always, I am “keepin it real”.
Let’s face reality – do you want to feed the starving workers of Haiti, Cote d’Ivore, the Congo and all the other countries where people are suffering??
I’m sure you do.
So – how do you plan to increase staple grain yields enough to feed all of those hungry folks????
And no, we’re not going to do it with Pol Pot-style hand labor.
We’re going to do it with tractors and pesticides.
Stalin would have agreed with me on that – and Mao, and for that matter Trotsky.
As for Coal – how else are you planning to fuel the power plants?
Guess what, if you’re posting in the United States, you’re using coal right now, cause that’s what they use to fuel American power plants these days.
Unless you’re into nuclear power, we’re going to have to use coal to fire the turbines in the electric plants.
And that’s just reality.
It’s funny, I always thought that communists were supposed to be all scientific and tied in with material reality.
And the material reality is, the world’s hungry need to be fed.
More than that, they need (and very much want – are indeed willing do die for) a decent standard of living – and that requires motor fuel and electric power.
And if you have a REAL alternative, which will give us the increased corn yields to make ethanol-based motor fuels AND feed the world’s hungry, and will give us similar increases in othe food crops, let’s hear it.
And hand labor agriculture is NOT the way – we’re going to need mechanized farms to do that.
Mechanizing agriculture will also free the hundreds of millions of workers presently tied up in and underutilized by agriculture from being trapped on the farms.
This will enable Third World countries to expand their industrial and service sectors – and, with that increased productivity of labor, there will be at least the possiblitity of an improved standard of living for the workers and farmers of the Third World.
I would like to see a day when the Third World is as developed as America is – hey, they’re human beings just like me, and they deserve to live as least as decently as I do.
They deserve running water, and sewer systems, and indoor plumbing, and stoves and refrigerators in their kitchens. Their kids deserve to go to school, and they deserve to have hospitals, emergency rooms, regular garbage collections – all the stuff that you and me take for granted.
How do you propose they get that?
Seriously, if you want to abolish Third World poverty, do you have a REAL alternative way besides industrialization of Third World agriculture?
Or is it OK with you that people of color in the Third World keep living in squalor and deprivation?
Sam said
I’m not arguing for non-mechanized farming. You seem to think that there are only two options. Hand labor, or the completely unsustainable version of industrial agriculture they have today (and yes they use lots of hand labor right now in the U.S., and yes it is backbreaking excruciating work). We can use technology, and free up labor, but we have to do it in a manner that is heading a sustainable direction.
Yes I’m using coal right now. I’m also typing on a computer that was made in a sweatshop (and so is EVERYTHING ELSE I USE!). I also eat food grown in monocultures (most of the time). Does that mean we should keep using sweatshops, coal, and monocultures? No. That’s a strawman argument.
Pesticide use as it is done today is totally inefficient. We spray pesticides 90% of the time when it is unnecessary resulting in output that is no higher, and making our food less healthy. IPM only uses pesticides at peak pest times of the season and focuses on breeding areas. In China in the 70’s they used it, and were recognized internationally by scientists as incredibly sustainable and efficient (in relation to pest control for farming). You’re completely buying into marketing schemes.
How are we going to provide power without coal? By actually funding sustainable energy programs. We are making great leaps in solar and hydrogen power system (among many other things). Imagine what we could do with real state funding and planning. Unfortunately these things aren’t priority right now, so progress is slow. With state power I’m confidant we could do much better. These are real alternatives, they just don’t getting play in the Capitalist system cause they threaten basic hegemonical structures (like the coal industry).
“Or is it OK with you that people of color in the Third World keep living in squalor and deprivation?” Save the insinuations for someone else. That’s a shitty way to debate. The people of the less developed countries don’t live in squalor because they don’t use pesticides and mechanized farming (in fact the large farm owners do). They live in squalor because they are suffering the effects of colonialism and now neocolonialism, and the subjugation of a local ruling class. They suffer because of elaborate systems of trade regulations, structural adjustment programs, and the many other horrible things we force on them. When we take our hands off their throats they’ll be plenty capable of emancipating themselves (that doesn’t mean we won’t help, but half the battle is ending imperialism). So please cut the petty moralism.
Who does global climate change effect? Trust me it’s not us in the “post” industrial world. It’s the farmers in less developed countries suffering from weather disasters.
TellNoLies said
For all of Gangbox’s dopey faith in models of food production and energy generation that were developed to maximize profits by externalizing human and environmental costs, we have to acknowledge th simple fact that knowing what is wrong with how we do things now doesn’t neccesarily tell us what we need to know about how to do things better and differently.
All their other costs notwithstanding Green Revolution increases in crop yields were real and they have dramatically altered the average caloric intake of people in much of the Third World. If we want to step back from destructive food and energy practices we need to do so in a manner that takes this basic fact into account.
Gangbox speaks inadvertently to the most obvious place for change when he notes that the power being used to conduct this online discussion comes significantly from coal. There is a need to transition away from certain technologies towards others and the bigesst and fastest gains to be made are to be made right here in the United States. “Our” car, meat and landfill culture is the single biggest obstacle to gloabl sustainabilty.
Can global food needs be met by permaculture? I don’t fucking know, but it sure ain’t gonna happen overnight. In the meantime we are feeding corn by the billions of bushels to cows and cars in the midst of a global wave of food riots. There are big ecological obstacles to raising global agricultural yields to American levels (not least of which is a dependence on petroleum based fertlizers and high energy inputs) that make this a dubious goal. The ability of 1% of the worlds farmers to produce 405 of the worlds corn on 5% of its landmass must not be separrated from the fact that they suck up a disproportionate share of its energy inputs. Presumably we can agree that the bounty that US farms do produce should not be squandered raising (methane emitting, artery clogging) beef cattle and fueling SUVs.
I like a juicy ribeye as much as the next guy, but I understand that they come at a social cost greater than the price I pay at the supermarket.
gangbox said
Sam said
Admittedly I steam rolled over a number of contradictions. Sustainability will not happen over night. We will use coal for sometime, we will use oil as well. But working towards relieving our dependence on it rather, than increasing it, is a big difference. That’s more what I was trying to say (while including examples of ways in which we can do that).
TellNoLies said
Apologies to Gangbox for calling his views “dopey” and to everyone else for dragging down the discussion.
cassiusghost said
Likewise, my condolences to Gangbox on his recent probation here at Kasama.
My status was lifted after just a few weeks.
I know the feeling, sent in a few too many that vaporized into cyberspace. Sometimes before I could re-load the page.
So I started to take the place as where I’d like to return to, despite my desire to engage in subjective rants.
I can still think of quite a few big shot communist leaders who deserve an cherry whipped cream pie in the face for missing it on Nepal. Get my drift ;-) Maybe sprinkle it with some hashish dingleberries in the hope they come up with something new about doing the dawg.
I am preparing a response to your numerous posts on this thread, hopefully it will pass the moderators’ (how many are there?) muster. I hope to make it thought-provoking enough to pass your muster.
I share in and feel your pain.
signed,
a former probatee,
looking forward to your release,
Cassius Ghost
r graves said
Interesting article from George Monbiot challenges the empirical basis for claims of the superiority of industrialized agriculture on a purely output basis:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/10/9532/
“Though the rich world’s governments won’t hear it, the issue of whether or not the world will be fed is partly a function of ownership. This reflects an unexpected discovery. It was first made in 1962 by the Nobel economist Amartya Sen, and has since been confirmed by dozens of studies. There is an inverse relationship between the size of farms and the amount of crops they produce per hectare. The smaller they are, the greater the yield.
In some cases, the difference is enormous. A recent study of farming in Turkey, for example, found that farms of less than one hectare are 20 times as productive as farms of more than 10 hectares. Sen’s observation has been tested in India, Pakistan, Nepal, Malaysia, Thailand, Java, the Philippines, Brazil, Colombia and Paraguay. It appears to hold almost everywhere.”
pipila said
R. Graves,
It would be interesting to know whether the difference in productive output on large versus small farms is related to the amount of labor expended on each. That is, it should not simply be a question of gross output, but a question of efficiency.
Uk Landfill said
I find it confusing how products such a lettuce that are grown locally and should require far less energy to produce and deliver to my local store can sometimes vary in price (up and down) by up to 15% over a few weeks while oil is staying pretty stable.