Kasama

Non-dogmatic…fiercely revolutionary

Mike Ely’s ‘Flat Earth’ Approach to Revolution

Posted by Mike E on May 3, 2008

flat earth

The following was sent to Kasama .

How Mike Ely Helps Us to See Bob Avakian’s Breakthroughs: Or Mike Ely’s ‘Flat Earth’ Approach to Revolution

by “Down with the Menshevik Inquisition

1) ‘Partisan Bases’ (and the ennui caused by their absence): Mike Ely makes much of how the RCP has not developed ‘partisan bases’ over the course of many years. But, while Mike Ely has read a lot of books about history, he has absorbed few lessons from those histories about the general nature of people’s movements and how they emerge, develop and decline. Mass movements of all kinds (including those led by revolutionary communists to make revolution) arise: a) on the basis of a previous groundwork, both organizational and ideological, laid by small groups of dedicated people acting over extended periods of time; b) on scales that grow and decline in massive numbers, over very condensed time frames.
This is actually counter-intuitive to what most people first think about how movements should develop. Most people initially think that as revolutionary communists, if we do all our work right, we will gradually recruit people, and get larger. And as we get larger, we will become more influential, we will become stronger, we will get closer to and eventually reach our goals. And when that doesn’t happen, if people don’t take a scientific approach, then they become discouraged. However, by taking a scientific approach, we can see that this ‘gradualism’ is not how social and political movements develop in the real world. At one point long ago, much of humanity thought the earth was flat. Then, at different times in the ancient world many different civilizations discovered that the earth is round, and now the whole planet knows the Earth is round (although maybe the theocratic fundamentalists will try to reverse that too). Getting discouraged by the failure of an organization or social movement to gradually grow and become large and powerful is like being a ‘flat-earther’ in the world of social and political activism.

Now Mike Ely has come out and argued that if activists can’t build a ‘partisan base’ over a protracted period of time, that what they’ve been doing has to have been wrong. But this point of view represents a failure to take a really scientific approach to how social and political movements actually develop. And where does it lead? It argues that, if we can’t build a ‘partisan base’ around lofty goals that serve the interests of 90% of humanity in the short term, then what we really need to do is set some more ‘winnable goals’ that will allow us to gain a base of support among the American people and then we can ‘declare victory’ and be really influential and big. But that’s a big mistake. Why would we even want to do this if we lost sight of our original goals? Who wants to make a pact with the devil in the hopes of having a big and strong organization that isn’t organized to do anything good?

Mike Ely undoubtedly will deny that he has now become an outright and bold paladin of gradualism and economism. He may even believe it himself. But if anyone has any questions about where his line is leading, just look at all the well-know and consolidated economists and gradualists who have flocked to his project’s website since it was launched. In contrast to Mike Ely’s approach, the RCP, led by Bob Avakian, is pursuing new methods of mobilizing masses for revolution that break new ground, require further scientific testing, and actually have a chance to lead the masses in winning their liberation.

2) The Esoteric Knowledge of the Ely: Much of the authority of Mike Ely’s polemic rests on an underlying assertion of his access to inside knowledge. The RCP may not be telling you what it really thinks, but look, Mike has the ‘real deal!’ From the prison camps of RCP organizational life to the bitter secret war against the Nepalese communists, Mike gives us just enough salacious details that we ‘know what he means’ without him actually having to come out and talk like a stool pigeon. Stalin killed 100 million, Mao 200 million, and only history will show how many millions have died in the prison camps Bob Avakian has set up inside the RCP! Anyone who doesn’t buy this Jung Chang style account of the RCP’s internal life just needs to ‘get real!’

As for Nepal, well, Mike Ely seems to think he has found an opportunity there. According the Mike Ely version of things, the RCP has been waging a veiled campaign against the CPN(M) for some time now, which he apparently thinks gives him quite the horse to attach his cart to. Here too, Mike Ely throws principle to the wind, striving to cast whatever tensions may (or may not) exist between two long-time participants in the RIM in the most antagonistic light possible so as to maneuver himself in hopes of a Nepal franchise. Mike Ely clearly sees the Nepalese Revolution as a step-ladder for his own revolutionary career.

Pop quiz:
Q.: When is solidarity with a revolution not actually solidarity?
A.: When it is just a self-serving ploy in the service of careerism and opportunism.

So for anyone who actually gives credence to any of Mike Ely’s claims to privileged knowledge, think about this:
a) When have you ever known the RCP not to be vocal and up front about what it thinks?

b) Whatever may or may not be going on between the CPN(M) and the RCP,USA, would it really be unprincipled for them to be talking behind the scenes instead of in the front of the whole world, as Ely seems to be demanding?

c) Who is being benefitting from Mike Ely’s ‘efforts’ around Nepal? The people of the world, the revolution in Nepal, or Mike Ely?

d) How could things inside the RCP really be as bad as Mike Ely claims? These are hard-working people struggling for revolution. You can’t do that with a boot on your neck, and Avakian doesn’t have state power. There is no police force to enforce the kind of claims Ely makes about the RCP’s internal life. Fortunately, the credulous have been raised with anti-communist prejudices that Mike Ely’s claims play to nicely.

e) Think for a minute why Mike Ely stopped supporting the RCP when he did and not before. Then think about it for another minute.

3) The Menshevik Inquisition—Or a Liberating and Scientific Vision of Communism and Revolution
Bob Avakian takes a scientific approach to revolution. He encourages us to see communist organization as a team of scientists testing ideas and using the scientific method to figure out how to lead the masses to communism. As science develops, it advances. But there is a Menshevik Inquisition which sees science as heresy, and demands that we hew to old texts, as read through the cataract-laden eyes of the inquisitors. If we can’t have revolution, at least we can have a ‘communist identity’ under capitalism, and Mike Ely hopes to be the high priest of that ‘communist identity.’ Ely claims to want to creatively advance Marxism, but then on all essential points falls back on wisdom received from earlier generations of revisionists, failing to understand the possibility of being scientific in our understanding of human society and its development. Bob Avakian is developing dialectical materialism and revolutionary communism to new heights and in new directions. But Mike Ely, high priest of the Menshevik Inquisition, is scandalized by science. His inquisition seeks to enforce a ‘flat earth’ against those of us who are just now coming to see that the earth is round. The road to revolution is much harder than building up a fake solidarity group around a webmaster. But for those who would travel that road, Bob Avakian is the man with the plan in van.

50 Responses to “Mike Ely’s ‘Flat Earth’ Approach to Revolution”

  1. Comments said

    Is this the best the “scientific” writer can do?

    How embarrassing.

  2. the cold lamper said

    “Paper will put up with anything written on it.”

  3. Mike E said

    Perhaps such comments are embarassing for the RCP itself, and for those who expected better.

    But we are obligated, nonetheless, to break this down with some substance, even if others don’t.

    First the highly personalized form of this attack (blending constant charges about personal opportunist motive with repeated distortions of the line questions) is a method. Generally, this is called “gutter politics.” And it is really pretty raw “innuendo” — since it has no substance to support it.

    * * * *

    Another side of the argument:

    “Now Mike Ely has come out and argued that if activists can’t build a ‘partisan base’ over a protracted period of time, that what they’ve been doing has to have been wrong.”

    In fact the 9 letters don’t argue this, which is why such comments don’t use quotations much.

    Letter 2 argues (among other things):

    * “The RCP has not developed, ever, a mass partisan political base for revolutionary communist politics anywhere, among any section of the people.” (This is not so much an argument, as simply pointing out an indisputable fact.)
    * That this problem has roots mainly in objective conditions.
    * That the RCP (not the 9 Letters) held that it was essential to build such bases, and set out to do so.
    * That the failure to do so has never been summed up in any real way.
    * That summing up this important political work (over more than a decade, involving a whole generation of communist activists from the 1980s through the 1990s) is a crucial part of identifying the lessons it holds for how to carry out communist work under non-revolutionary situation.
    * Finally we argue that it is necessary to “accumulate revolutionary forces” in order to be in position to make revolution when that becomes possible. You can “come from behind” but you can’t “come from nowhere.”

    After misrepresenting the 9 Letters argument, this post then goes on to extrapolate where such a (distorted) argument must lead:

    “But this point of view represents a failure to take a really scientific approach to how social and political movements actually develop. And where does it lead? It argues that, if we can’t build a ‘partisan base’ around lofty goals that serve the interests of 90% of humanity in the short term, then what we really need to do is set some more ‘winnable goals’ that will allow us to gain a base of support among the American people and then we can ‘declare victory’ and be really influential and big.”

    This again has no relationship to what the 9 Letters says (as any reader knows), and it is (in fact) not where the line or argument of the 9 Letters lead.

    But there is a method here:

    First this method starts with a distorted set of claims for what the 9 letters criticism of the RCP is.

    Then: it proceeds to insist that these criticisms must lead to reformism and economism (and wanting to build a big base of influence by whatever means.)

    Finally, it ends by criticising the 9 Letters (and “Mr. Ely” personally, of course) of rank opportunism for promoting such reformism and economism.

    It is a method, and an argument that spins awkwardly in the air — without every really engaging its opponents or reality. I can’t really imagine who could find it convincing.

    But let’s ask: Does our poster DWTMI here deny or accept the observation that the RCP has never developed “a mass partisan political base for revolutionary communist politics anywhere, among any section of the people”? It seems that he/she acknowledges that this is true, but argues that it was a goal (over twenty plus years) that was unrealistic, and so therefore doesn’t matter. Is that what you are arguing?

    Can DWTMI point to any arguments in the 9 Letters for dropping “lofty goals” and building influence by whatever works?

    No, it can’t. Cuz those aren’t the arguments being made. Nor does the (very embryonic initial) practice of Kasama point that way.

    Take for example, what Kasama supporters took to the immigrant march in Chicago. Was it a call for “winnable goals”? Uh no.

    Just look at at the leaflet Which is about the “lofty goals” of communist revolution and internationalist solidarity of working people for REVOLUTIONARY attempts.

    Perhaps DWTMI thinks it is economist and reformist to spread information about the (unfortunately little-known) revolutionary movement in Nepal among thousands of immigrant workers on May First. If so, school us.

    But, obviously the Kasama efforts to discuss the revolution in Nepal need to be attacked. So how is it done?

    Note the sentence: “Who is being benefitting from Mike Ely’s ‘efforts’ around Nepal? The people of the world, the revolution in Nepal, or Mike Ely?”

    Let’s leave aside the (now familiar) charges of personal opportunism (and now “benefit”!)

    But lets ask the substantive question:

    How should communists respond to the intense revolutionary struggle and controversy emerging in India and Nepal?

    Why don’t you actually engage the criticism Kasama raises: about the retreat from internationalism?

    Would DWTMI (or anyone else) like to publicly and honestly defend the RCP’s in-action around the revolution in Nepal (and other revolutionary struggles facing U.S. intervention)?

    * * * * *

    Then there is the argument about “inside information”:

    “Much of the authority of Mike Ely’s polemic rests on an underlying assertion of his access to inside knowledge.”

    There is much to say about this (in both tone and content).

    First of all, it is actually not true. The “authority” of the 9 Letters to Our Comrades” (to the extent that they have any) rests on the truth of their argument and the excavation of long-standing problems of the communist movement in the U.S. Nothing essential rests on the “underlying assertion” of “inside knowledge.”

    And nothing “inside” has been brought forward: except for matters of line, which is both necessary and inevitable: The 9 Letters is part of a sharp two-lined struggle that developed within the RCP. It is about the lines emerging from that struggle. And it is a critique OF the RCP and its line/synthesis.

    Now all of this is hyped as some kind of outrage (both here, and in the RCP’s recent response which employs the same line of approach).

    There is a glaring Catch-22 posed here: Inside the RCP people were told that opposition to Avakian’s synthesis needed to be driven out of the party. “The train has left the station.” And continued debate over such line questions was considered intolerable and objectively sabotage. Ok, so people with those views leave (one way or another). Then it is announced that those leaving the RCP may not mention the key line questions that were used to drive them out!

    They reorganize their party and line around the assertion that “Avakian as cardinal question” — but forbid anyone to mention that! Hmmmm.

    Their real argument: communists who oppose Avakian’s synthesis are just supposed to go away and SHUT THE FUCK UP. And not to shut up is proof of revisionism (and of opportunism, unprincipled behavior, leaking “inside information” in a suspicious way, even counterrevolution blah, blah, blah.)

    In fact, here are some simple realities:

    First, the authors of the 9 Letters were (in the main) people who have recently emerged from the RCP. They (including Mike Ely who did the overall writing) worked hard NOT to leak inside information about organizaitonal operations, leading personalities, internal events etc. And the discussion of line raised IS IN FACT completely accurate.

    If it is inaccurate: in its discussion of “Avakian as cardinal question,” in the view of Avakian “on the level of a Mao or a Lenin,” in its view of the RCP’s passive inaction around U.S. actions against the world’s Maoist revolutions…. if any of that is untrue: then state it is untrue. State it openly. Is it untrue? No.

    The method employed is (a) to not deny these things (since they are in fact true). and (b) to confuse the issues by charging that there are vague distortions, and (c) argue that it is wrong to publicly discuss this party’s central assertions about Avakian and his allegedly unique role in this moment of work history and (d) to attack the messenger while avoiding the line questions as much as possible.

    It is like a game of three-card monty rooted in misdirection. Its core argument rests on circular reasoning:

    The announced starting point is: We are the vanguard party. Our synthesis is truth. The future of humanity depends on our leader Bob Avakian.

    From those stateed posulates, it is possible to deduce (by formal logic applied in an emotional, white-knucked way) that: Anyone who ciritcizes this party, this line, this synthesis (in a non-appreciative and comprehensive way) — is therefore working in sinister ways against the bright future humanity needs.

    (It is a tidy logic that doesn’t need to actually engage the criticism in any substantive way — since it rests on a series of assertions that assume any basic criticism is intolerable.)

    The problem with all of this is there for the taking: It masks both the reality of the RCP and the reality of the criticisms being made. And anyone can simply read the 9 Letters (and this site) and then compare and contrast (with the line of the RCP and the response of the RCP).

  4. Comments said

    Kasama has done the author of this laughable piece a favor by posting it and taking it seriously. Where else is it supposed to appear? Does the RCP plan to post it on its site? That would be a statement of total critical bankruptcy.

  5. STB said

    Comments,

    Are you kidding me? This person obviously doesn’t represent the RCP.

    I think it is very opportunist of you Mike to post this kind of obscure shit that obviously does not speak for the RCP as a fucking headline, and then tagging it with the keyword “Bob Avakian.”

  6. Mike E said

    STB:

    I don’t know DWTMI’s relationship with the RCP, and don’t imply any. But I suggest you go read the RCP’s response. Since DWTMI is clearly following both the content and method of that response closely. And as a result, everything I said about DWTMI’s post, its method and arguments applies closely to the RCP’s official response (as others have pointed out earlier).

    As for how this post is tagged: DWTMI’s post (and the comments that follow it) are part of the ongoing debate on over Bob Avakian and his synthesis, and so it is quite appropriate to tag it with Avakian’s name so people wanting to follow that debate can find this thread.

    In fact your comment here applies the very method we are critiquing: misdirection, personal attack, complaints about petty matters, and avoiding the very substance of the discussion here. Your method is of a piece with DWTMI and the RCP’s official response.

    So why don’t you break with that method and comment on some of the substantive issues:

    Is Avakian a cardinal question dividing communism from counter-revolution-disguised-as-communism?
    Is Avkian on the level of a Lenin or a Mao?
    Is it “unprincipled” to point out that this is now central to the RCP’s line, and to criticize that line?
    Is it true that the RCP has failed in its own detailed goals of developing partisan base areas?
    Is it true that there is no available summation of that failure?
    Is the Kasama work around Nepal as matter of personal “benefit”? And if so, how?
    Do you support the RCP’s refusal to organize against U.S. intervention in Nepal, in continuing U.S. labeling of the Nepali Maoists as “terrorists”?

    Why don’t you speak on those issues STB (which are a bit more significant than quibbling over how this site “tags” its posts)?

    Comments:

    I’m not a big fan of dismissing criticism of opponents lightly. Yes, these arguments seem shallow to many of us. Yes, we are quick to see the error of their argument (and its base on false assumptions.) But I don’t think everyone reading this sees what you see. And not everyone will automatically agree that it is “laughable.” For one thing, section of people have been trained in these methods and assumptions (which is why the RCP thinks they will get over). For example: there is a hyped sense of siege mentality and defensiveness around the RCP, and I believe even many people who oppose the “Avakian as cardinal question” believe that “anything that undermines this party is probably a bad thing.” There is a powerful impulse to hide the failures of this party, and to hype its work in a self-deceptive way.

    I don’t think posting the views of opponents “does them a favor” — I think this approach does the larger line struggle a favor — by giving people a chance to “compare and contrast.” This crude method and argument is, in fact, the same line as the RCP’s response. You may think it is “laughable” — but it is, in fact, their line and argument.

    When they dismiss the 9 Letters with disdain — we should not respond in kind. I think it is helpful for people to study various opposing lines, and do the work of breaking it down for method and content. The very reason people keep COMING to this site, is precisely that they can see such issues actually laid out — and hear the different defenders of the different lines speak.

    In his important critique of Avakian, Pavel notes how mocking things with [Laughter] is used as a way of dismissing without getting into them deeply. By contrast I think we should take the arguments of opponents seriously as a matter of principle… We should craft substantive replies (even to flimsy and shallow arguments) in ways that deepen the overall line struggle.

  7. STB said

    The article engaged in all kinds of speculation around Nepal in a lot of different regards. The RCP has never, to my knowledge, commented on you in relation to the question of Nepal.

    I have more important things to do than to drop everything and write a critique for you Mike. Despite my differences with them, the RCP has critiqued the economist revisionist lines posed in this project better than I ever could. I don’t have the time to write a critique for Kasama, and the comrades on here shouldn’t have time to read it.

    In posting here, I just wanted to post a few comments that I thought would be of benefit to people who lurk on here who don’t have the basis to see through your distortions of the RCP.

  8. Mike E said

    While we are talking: Some people have commented that the RCP’s May 1 issue no longer refers to “International Workers Day.” It is rather startling — Since in the past, the RCP’s newspaper’s special May First Issue was always a colorful celebration of “International Workers Day” with special manifestos, internationalist posters around key revolutionary struggles, etc. This was always a day when the final goals of the revolution, larger outlines of the class struggle and the plans of the revolutionary movement were put forward in a sharp and popular way.

    And there were usually events and demonstrations (or contingents) around the revolutionary pole.

    This year, the RCP was (as far as could be told) limited to selling this paper announcing the pamphlet and selling the pamphlet itself — in teams at the larger may first events. (I bought one of each.)

    This issue is rather strange and very different: It is an announcement of the publication of a pamphlet of reprints (which is described in great detail in a article sprawled over three solid-type newspaper pages, and advertised on both the front and back page.)

    Can anyone lay out why the RCP’s May First is no longer described as “International Workers Day”?

  9. zerohour said

    “Are you kidding me? This person obviously doesn’t represent the RCP. I think it is very opportunist of you Mike to post this kind of obscure shit that obviously does not speak for the RCP as a fucking headline, and then tagging it with the keyword “Bob Avakian.””

    I think it is important to state that this person has not claimed to represent RCP. Even though the poster has adopted the RCP’s methods of combining personal attack with factual distortion, and re-states some of RCP’s positions, we should not automatically infer that they represent RCP.

    STB, you drop by every once in a while to call us out. Why don’t you submit your own critique of the 9 Letters instead of sniping? Even if you only focused on a section it would prove more useful than a one-line or one-paragraph remark. Or maybe you can tell us if, or how you disagree with the post?

  10. zerohour said

    STB -

    I didn’t see your post before I posted so you answered my question, but you also made a telling remark:

    “I don’t have the time to write a critique for Kasama, and the comrades on here shouldn’t have time to read it.”

    Because they should be out in the world doing real work right? Now there’s economism for you.

    However this is not as funny as the MIM review of Star Trek V which called out those of us who had the luxury of seeing movies while millions suffered around us. ;)

  11. andreimazenov said

    A quick comment:

    Exactly how is Kasama the “Menshevik Inquistion”?

    Who is the Inquisition here? Who are the “heretics” and who is the “Pope”?

    Who are the ones looking to be a vanguard of the future, and who are fetishizing the past with terms like “Menshevik” and “Inquisition”?

    A couple of months ago, Com. Ely posted a sharp article about history and labels that is worth revisiting and re-reading, called “Can We Imitate Finland Station?” that can be found here: http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/finland-station-fantasy-a-poverty-of-imagination/

    It’s food for thought, and might add some depth to the discussion contrasting the RCP’s vision of revolution and the Kasama vision of revolution.

  12. Iris said

    If the RCP didn’t want to say “int’l WORKER’S day”, could they say something else international? Something about the proletariet…I feel leery of the word ‘workers’ because I’ve only heard it used by truly economist people in my city (WWI people).

  13. redflags said

    STB – or whoever – can you provide a list of these principles?

    The dull invocation of these “principles” while engaging in constant and frankly stupid personal attacks on Mike is kind of, uh, unprincipled – but harping on it is beside the point.

    Every response from the RCP has been either a bait-and-switch or a personal attack on Ely (and by extension the other former members, supporters and comrades posting here) that assumes any divergence from Avakian and his self-conception is a capitulation. That’s the word a leading member of the RCP said to me on his way out of the synthesis event in NYC, without explaining this capitulation. It’s apparently enough to say it.

    Before the RCP goes on making these personal attacks, which have not been dished back in kind – I’d like to repeat my request for any published criticism of the RCP and Avakian’s leadership in particular that the RCP’s apologists and followers think is “principled”.

    I asked this a couple of months ago, and STB still just comes back with these rhetorical farts and thinks anyone is supposed to be impressed.

    What’s it the point exactly if you’re not even trying to win people over? Attacking people for what they don’t even think isn’t fruitful.

  14. redflags said

    STB – writing a critique isn’t for Mike, though Kasama has shown from its inception that it is interested in thinking, commentary and discussion sparked by even those ideas and personalities it doesn’t agree with.

    Thousands of people have and are reading this site from all over the world. Since the RCP is scared white of any discussion beyond “asking the Oracle” in tightly administered settings (where the answers precede the questions) – you are surely welcome to post your principled (and even not so) comments and serious analysis here.

    If that discussion isn’t happening here, then post a link to where it is and I’m sure you’ll get some takers.

  15. STB said

    Iris and Mike,

    I heard the RCP this year say both IWD and “the day of the international proletariat.” I find this kind of speculation and obsession with the RCP really creepy…

    Andrei,

    Ok, you can’t dogmatically repeat history, that’s true. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s wrong to actually point out real objective political and ideological lines that have existed historically in our movement. Is a revisionist line not revisionist anymore because this isn’t 1976?

  16. zerohour said

    STB says “Ok, you can’t dogmatically repeat history, that’s true. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s wrong to actually point out real objective political and ideological lines that have existed historically in our movement. Is a revisionist line not revisionist anymore because this isn’t 1976?”

    There is a rhetorical trick used by lawyers and political strategists in which one should not answer the question one is asked, but the question one would like to have been asked.

    The issue here isn’t whether those lines were the terms of debate then, but how are they the same terms now? Relying on past examples to substitute for concrete argument is a form of logical fallacy know as “argument by analogy”, and reflects a superficial approach to complex questions. What is the effect of calling someone a “Menshevik” if not to produce a visceral response among those who know this term, and head-scratching among those who don’t? Nothing is explained, but for some, that’s sufficient. For those of us trying to understand things, empty rhetoric is just another pointless obstacle.

  17. Mike E said

    STB claims that investigating the RCP’s changing approach to May First is “creepy.” Uh, ok.

    But surely anyone who knows anything at all about the RCP can see that there is more changed in this May First issue than just the absence of the words “international workers day” (or even of your alternative formulation “day of the international proletariat” for that matter.)

    There is not much celebration or manifesting of a revolutionary holiday at all in this #128 issue of Revolution — at least not in the ways the RCP has previously used the day to broadly manifest its internationalism and goals with concrete actions of working people “taking the stage.”

    The whole point of having a newspaper of posters (as the RCP did on May 1st for decades before the last years) was to emphasize taking the internationalism and communism to the people and “to the streets.” And there were powerful manifestations — in the powerful May Days of LA for example, when the police felt compelled to attack the people gathering under revolutionary banners.

    Now, in fact, revolutionary work has been largely reduced to “taking out Avakian” — and so the May First issue has five pages on the publication of pamphlet of reprints (from previous issues of Revolution) on various theoretical and strategic issues.

    I’m not implying the theoretical and strategic issues are not important. (Far from it!) Or that it is wrong to advertise new pamphlets reprinting previous articles. But the reduction of May First in this manner IS a major change — and it is valuable to investigate and vet the change of line that it embodied.

  18. Iris said

    STB, I wasn’t trying to be creepy. Mostly, I was asking about the phrase ‘the workers’ itself. And I was just tentatively asking, is the phrase ‘workers’ a good phrase to use? Is it shallow or economist? Or is it wrong to say so? I asked this in a context not dependent on the RCP at all.

    I heard cadre use those phrases, and of course there was a party at the bookstore. STB, I’m not saying the party is now officially pretending MAY DAY doesn’t exist or something. They referred to this issue of the paper as “more straight up communist” than about immigrants or whatever. If I were a socialist, and I received my first ever issue of Revolution while walking around on May Day, I think the near non-mention of May Day would be pretty glaring. And I felt sad that we talked about taking stock of what we have and what we want to do in the future, but this electric atmosphere: don’t talk about WHY we, the communist movement in the US, don’t have what we need NOW–what has worked and what hasn’t.

  19. Iris said

    Mike, what is the change of line embodied in this issue on May Day? In your opinion I mean–that BA has used all the pages up?

  20. Sam said

    Well, I have to say I’m not too interested in what has changed in relation to the RCP and what they refer to May Day (my preferred name) as, too bad. But I guess RCP related stuff is still a question for some. This doesn’t feel like a big question to me though.

    I have to agree that this post for the most part does reflect the general thrust of the RCP response (if not as articulately). The line is similar to those I have been discussing the letters (and this site generally) with as well. Supporters and “non-supporter” supporters.

    I wish supporters were allowed or chose to post here. It may actually clear things up for people (myself included in some ways).

    STB,

    You don’t have to write a thesis. Just a little more than saying “I disagree with you”. That doesn’t help anyone “lurking” around here.

  21. TellNoLies said

    STB writes:

    “I have more important things to do than to drop everything and write a critique for you Mike. Despite my differences with them, the RCP has critiqued the economist revisionist lines posed in this project better than I ever could. I don’t have the time to write a critique for Kasama, and the comrades on here shouldn’t have time to read it.”

    This is, frankly, bullshit. The implication is that reading, let alone writing, a critique of Kasama is a waste of time that should be spent better doing what? Peddling Avakiana?

    Look, the RCP has called for people broadly to “engage Bob Avakian.” The response has been the sound of crickets. Ely and others here have offered the most serious engagement with Avakian’s ideas out there. Maybe Ely got it all wrong. But if so it should be seized on as an opportunity, as a teachable moment to really explain how he got it wrong and what Bob is really saying. Because, frankly, there aren’t likely to be a lot more opportunities. The attempts to get academics to “engage” Avakian have been a complete flop for reasons that have been discussed elsewhere here and I promise that is not going to change. (And no, getting the list of left academics who will literally sign every call doesn’t count as some sort of breakthrough.) This is it. This site and a few others are the places where a layer of people who otherwise wouldn’t give the RCP the time of day might actually read what they have to say in their own defense because people are attracted to the spirit of open debate that occurs here. It ain’t huge, but if the RCP can’t engage this circle of folks in a constructive way, these calls to engage Avakian are going nowhere.

    Instead we get a bunch of personal attacks on Ely’s integrity and vague unsubstantiated charges that he is being unprincipled. The problem with these charges is that people can check it for themselves by reading the 9 Letters. There is no gossip or dish to be found. The only secrets he claims to have revealed are matters of LINE concerning the status of Avakian. If revealing those is a violation of principle, well the RCP should step up and explain to the rest of us dummies why it should be entitled to keep its line secret. If Ely is simply wrong and its not the line, they should come out and say what the line actually is. Their attacks on Ely’s character coupled with their refusal to answer the weightiest charge (and one that rings true to people outside the party) suggests strongly that Ely’s characterization of the party’s “secret” line is correct.

  22. Sean S. said

    These are hard-working people struggling for revolution. You can’t do that with a boot on your neck, and Avakian doesn’t have state power. There is no police force to enforce the kind of claims Ely makes about the RCP’s internal life. Fortunately, the credulous have been raised with anti-communist prejudices that Mike Ely’s claims play to nicely.

    This line right here flies in the face of reality. Of COURSE groups, and their leaders, can demand unquestioned obedience/loyalty, and enforce this through a system of degradation and emotional/physical abuse. While I’m not suggesting this IS what RCP does, its absurd to believe that any group, no matter how small and whether or not it lacks “State power”, can enforce the same things.

    Either the writer is unwilling to deal honestly with potentially unproductive and stifling dynamics within the RCP, or believes it can do no wrong just because it doesn’t have a badge (or that its ‘not as bad’ as those carrying a badge).

  23. gangbox said

    I’m far from a partisan of Mike Ely or Kasama.

    With that said, that article was pretty terrible, on a bunch of levels.

    Just to take one, the idea that just because the RCP doesn’t have state power doesn’t mean that it can’t be an internally cultish or repressive place.

    There are LOTS of cults around the world that don’t have state power – America in particular is full of them (for instance the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, the pedophilic polygamist Morman cult just raided by the Texas Division of Youth and Family Services recently), and they do an excellent job of making people internalize their own oppression so deeply that they might as well be under lock and key.

    So it is entirely possible to run a cult, and to repress people psychologically and otherwise, without having state power.

    Beyond that, the post has the usual stale Avakian-worship that kept me away from the RCP for so many years (and, after a brief association – during which time I held my nose at the adjulation – has caused me to pull back away).

    Just a note to the person who wrote the post – “science” does NOT mean one super guy comes up with the theories, and brings them down to the abjectly stupid masses like Moses with the 10 Commandments.

    “Science” means that a scientist produces a theory, based on logical examination of the evidence, other scientists test that theory and, based on the experiments they perform, prove if it’s true or not (or partially true).

    Just thought I’d share that rather unusual idea with the person who wrote that article.

    Again, I never thought I’d be defending Mike Ely – but then this post came along, and made hell freeze over!!!

  24. cassiusghost said

    Shouldn’t we treat this critic with a little more respect?
    And why argue over whether to use the word proletariat or not?
    There’s nothing wrong in teaching people a little history without talking down – by using the word – people will ask, if they don’t understand.
    I’m going to read this critic again -

  25. Mike E said

    DWTMI writes:

    “According the Mike Ely version of things, the RCP has been waging a veiled campaign against the CPN(M) for some time now, which he apparently thinks gives him quite the horse to attach his cart to. Here too, Mike Ely throws principle to the wind, striving to cast whatever tensions may (or may not) exist between two long-time participants in the RIM in the most antagonistic light possible so as to maneuver himself in hopes of a Nepal franchise.”

    STB writes:

    “The article [by DWTMI] engaged in all kinds of speculation around Nepal in a lot of different regards. The RCP has never, to my knowledge, commented on you in relation to the question of Nepal.”

    Now let’s start with a simple truth: The RCP has not (to my knowledge either) commented on our belief that they have retreated from internationalism — most glaringly in regard to the revolutionary struggles in Nepal and India. This is part of the picture: since they have not, in their own name, commented on the Nepalese revolutionary process either.

    Silence — as the first communist revolution in decades struggles to approach the seizure of power. and now (on May first) a promise has come from the RCP that some commentary will be coming at some point in the future. The RCP writes: “As events unfold we will have further analysis of these important developments.”

    In the RCP’s fourth response (the formal and lengthy one written by their writing group), there is only one reference I can find to these matters. They write:

    “One of the most foundational principles of Marxism, which Mike Ely barely pays lip service to in his Nine Letters, is internationalism. Lenin spoke of the duty of all communists in imperialist countries to work for the defeat of one’s own bourgeoisie and to lead the masses to rupture out of the framework of support for the nation.”

    This last quote (from the RCP itself) is of course, rather ironic, since (as STB correctly points out) they don’t engage the very questions we raised around their retreat from internationalism. If it is the duty of all communists in imperialist countries to work in this way… why has the RCP not opposed the U.S. actions against the revolution in Nepal over the last year or more? Why have they not exposed the continued U.S. placement of the Nepali Maoists on the State Department’s “terrorist list” — with all the threats and lies that includes? Why have they not denounced the recent U.S. intrigues with the reactionary parties in Nepal to prevent the advance of the revolution (in the context of the coming Constiutent Assembly)?

    Where is this “duty of all communists in imperialist countries”?

    Further, STB is right in saying that the RCP (publicly at least) treats any discussion of these line questions as “speculation” — as something unprincipled.

    But here is the reality: there is a major set of line struggle going on in the world among communists (within and without the Revolutionary internationalist movement). These questions touch on many major issues of both theory and practice.

    The RCP has a relatively simple position. I would loosely characterize it (in my words, not theirs) this way:
    “Since we are the party, we are handling all this. Whatever we are doing is none of your business. and please shut up about it.”

    Yes, In fact they ARE handling it, and applying a wrong line.

    And the line struggle here is not just between them and the other parties — it cuts across parties. It is a line struggle over internationalism that must be raised AMONG revolutionary communists WITHIN the U.S. Because we have a duty: first to criticize the RCP’s rather startling retreat from internationalism, and second to take up the work that is “the duty of communists” with whatever forces are available.

    The two line struggle between Kasama/9letters and the RCP is inseparable from the larger line struggles developing sharply around the world — as anyone close to the RCP knows, but dare not say.

    The Chinese Maoists used to joke about party bigshots threatening people with the words “Don’t dare touch the tiger’s ass!”

    And that is, in a nutshell, the RCP’s position and tone: Who the fuck are you to question our approach to international line questions? Who the fuck are you to question why we don’t build internationalist political support for the revolutionary struggles of Nepal and India (and elsewhere)? Who the fuck are you to question why we don’t even report regularly in our press about developments in the revolutionary struggles led by Maoists around the world?

    And if you don’t obey this, if you don’t comply with their demand for SILENCE, if you don’t PARTICIPATE in THEIR silence … then you are (as this thread shows) accused of opportunism, careerism, leaking of party secrets, distorting the party’s line, serving the other side and so on….

    There has been, in fact, “a veiled campaign” waged by the RCP against the Nepali Maoists — and often it is not so veiled. Who around the RCP hasn’t heard it? And where does that lead?

    Nepal is a precious revolutionary movement led by Maoist communists — needing internationalist political support (as well as deep-going critical-minded study.) And internationalism demands a struggle over line, and it demands actually taking up internationalist work.

    The wind will not subside.

  26. SeriyVolk said

    I spent part of the weekend listening to Avakian’s talk, Revolution: Why It’s Necessary, Why It’s Possible, What It’s All About, while working on other things. The lectures are (still) a fantastic resource, and they formulate perhaps the most cohesive and eloquent challenge to the US ruling class that’s ever been raised (just my opinion obviously).

    How different the situation is today! The videos, filmed in 2003, portray a Revolutionary Communist Party that encourages criticism and struggling – or “wruggling”, is it? I don’t have my RCP phrase book handy – with the issues. However he was talking in the context of a socialist society. Has this come to mean that criticism on the path to revolution is tantamount to sabotage and that criticism will be tolerated once it’s “safe”?

    The RCP is creating an extremely hostile and stifling environment. What is all this “train has left the station” nonsense? (Can someone please provide that in context btw?) Science is about peer review and constant upheaval. If the train has a broken axle, we’re going to pull it back and try again!

    This also reveals a bitterness, so to speak, about the health of the RCP and the communist movement in general. If your movement is lively, then bringing up old questions for new people is not a drain on your productivity (we make a conscious effort to do it every several months at my local organizaion). There should be plenty of people willing and able to bring these new folks up to speed, assuming that the group has the right idea. This new energy challenges the perceptions of both new and old cadre, and it ultimately strengthens their convictions.

  27. Linda D. said

    In the scheme of things, I have some comments that are not particularly pivotal to the polemic being waged, but feel compelled to say something.

    First of all…re ““The RCP has not developed, ever, a mass partisan political base for revolutionary communist politics anywhere, among any section of the people.” is to me a SLIGHT exaggeration. I think the RCP has had several opportunities to further develop a more mass partisan political base, etc. but the RCP’s dogmatism, sectarianism, and yes, Mike, “siege mentality” has prevented them from applying the mass line in any kind of meaningful way, so that ultimately they are unable to organize and mobilize any kind of revolutionary mass/partisan base.

    As far as Iris’(who I agree with most of the time) comments about the use of the word “workers” and equating that with economism (”I feel leery of the word ‘workers’ because I’ve only heard it used by truly economist people in my city…”),I couldn’t disagree with you more. May Day has traditionally been the revered celebratory day of the International proletariat and its allies. As you know, it began in Chicago and the Haymarket and the fight for the 8 hr. day, but the U.S. ruling class has obliterated May Day from its calendar. (Actually the RU and during the beginning years of the RCP, helped revitalize May Day in the U.S. I don’t know about the RCP’s action or inaction this year, but was completely saddened at what I witnessed around 1989 and the RCP’s sop to May Day.) Meanwhile INTERNATIONAL Workers Day is still celebrated in most other parts of the world, and I’m not talking about the former Soviet Union displaying its arsenal of tanks and military might. May Day has for the most part been the day when the working class and its allies join forces, around past, present and future struggles, including more revolutionary communist struggles. This year in San Francisco on May 1st, the ILWU, together with mostly other workers and unions, organized a march AGAINST the war in Iraq. They shut down ports and businesses, with many places not doing “business as usual” in solidarity against the war. And one of the more significant demands of this demonstration was “in solidarity with immigrants.” While it is true, these same “workers” weren’t outright marching in solidarity with the Nepalese revolutionaries, they helped capture the spirit of May Day.

    I have never understood the line about “the real proletariat”. I think I get it in terms of certain sections of the proletariat being more oppressed, and more mobile and revolutionary-minded, etc. But am really asking, and not trying to be cutesy…isn’t the proletariat en masse the most revolutionary class because of its relation to the means of production, etc.? And why is the working class many times automatically associated or equated with economism? or stereotyped as backward, etc.

  28. cassiusghost said

    I believe the poster SeriVolk should look at this link, in relation to the “train leaving the station”

    http://mikeely.wordpress.com/2008/03/08/finland-station-fantasy-a-poverty-of-imagination/#comment-3739

  29. cassiusghost said

    Linda D: What did you see in ‘89 that “saddened” you? It might be good to recount that as part of an investigation into just where all this went afoul within the RCP?

    I think a thorough investigation of the RCP political line history is absolutely necessary, as a criticism to not repeat the same stupid mistakes.

    What did you see then?

  30. Linda D. said

    To Cassiusghost (clever moniker BTW):

    I will try and answer your question about 1989 (or thereabouts) but must say, even though I brought it up, am not all that anxious to indulge in “who shot Cock Robin” or when or where, since am not sure how relevant these snippets of empirical experiences are in a more lofty attempt at line struggle. Frankly, I don’t give much creedence to the RCP and am more concerned that whoever takes over the mantle of struggle for revolutionary change doesn’t become the new oppressor.

    But before I get into May Day, I want to comment on a few things by DWTMI (or as I prefer to call this person, DUI). I don’t know if DUI represents the RCP, or is just on their lonesome, and seemingly a loose cannon. But if the RCP is not in agreement with some of what they put forward, it would be more principled on their part to explain why or why not. However, I remain convinced that the RCP will not make any further comments. DUI can be the fall guy. So be it.

    But just on two points that DUI made, and I hope I’m not taking these out of context, but think that they are revealing.

    DWTMI said:

    “How could things inside the RCP really be as bad as Mike Ely claims? These are hard-working people struggling for revolution.”

    The last sentence strikes me as not something that would come directly from the RCP leadership, nor characteristic of their axioms because it comes off so moralistic. At the same time, many of us were groomed to be such “hard working” Jimmy Higgins, but they would never admit that. But come on–most people who are involved in revolutionary politics, or part of some organization, etc. are not looking for gold stars and operating under some Puritan work ethic. Hardly. That little sentence by DUI was purely emotional and sappy.

    Which leads me to the next little part I thought revealing:

    “But if anyone has any questions about where his line is leading, just look at all the well-know [sic]and consolidated economists and gradualists who have flocked to his project’s website since it was launched.”

    In one sentence, DUI manages to show the real contempt and disdain the RCP (or DUI) has for anyone who does not follow the RCP’s line and program to the letter (unless of course the RCP needs some noted economist to sign one of their “petitions”), even if we’re talking about people who have dedicated their “hard working” lives to revolutionary change. Or, within that coterie, people who have at least been consumed by analyzing, summing up, etc. economics. It’s as if Raymond Lotta is the only reliable economist.

    Now then, onto May Day. The irony is, this year on May 1st, I ran into an old friend who never made it to the RCP but was a devoted and “hard-working” RU member. We got all excited at the fact that we would meet up on May Day.

    So I want to start with the positive. For many years, the RU and RCP not only gave May Day its due, but truly organized and mobilized many, and many people from the working class. Their program always included a speech by the RCP/RU–a revolutionary communist perspective, and while most folks involved were not revolutionaries per se, they “listened up” and united with much the RCP had to say. And I might add, the RCP wasn’t feeding the participants a bunch of pablum, but raised crucial questions. International Workers Day was back on the map in the U.S. in a meaningful way, and in no small part due to the efforts of the RCP.

    Even though I was out of the party by the time 1989 (I think it was 1989 but might have been earlier) rolled around, I was still reading the RW, etc., albeit sporadically, but was still open to what the RCP had to say on numerous questions. I went looking for a May Day demonstration, of course thinking that the RCP would be the ones to promote it.

    What I found was, mostly the RCYB, on the university’s campus–a handful of folks dancing around like they were looking for the May Pole or a modern day version of Hari Krishna wanna be’s–minus the cymbals, some selling the RW, but mainly talking amongst themselves. Needless to say I was sorely disappointed. Wasn’t just disappointed, but was pissed off.

    If memory serves me right, by that time the line “real proletariat” was in play but all I could see was some pandering to either students or actual lumpen, who were trying to hit the RCYBers up for “spare change.” To say that May Day had been rendered less profound is an understatement. I asked an RCYB member if there was going to be a formal march, demo, speeches, etc. (trying to give them the benefit of the doubt), but the response I got was: “No this is it. Cool huh?” NOT. So when this same RCYB member tried to of course sell me a copy of the RW, and ask for a donation, I basically told them to shove it. “Do you even know the significance of May Day?” “Ur, um…yeah, it’s international workers’ day…” except that their little slam dancing routine had nothing to do with International Workers Day. “Did you see the news with footage about how May Day is celebrated in other countries?” “Well, uh, yeah sort of, but ya know, those are mostly ‘revisionist’.” Ad nauseum.

    “It’s Right to Rebel,” became a clarion call during the 80’s in the RCP. And while I agree in the main with that slogan, I also think (and thought at the time–even raising this with leadership) that yes, it’s right to rebel, but against what? What is the content and context we’re dealing with? Rebelling for rebellion’s sake? I couldn’t help but think that the RCP, at that time, was finding it more difficult to mobilize sections of the working class and more progressive forces amongst the petit bourgeoisie, so they thought they could get over more amongst the students and lumpen, and pretty much avoid much mention of the international proletariat. In all fairness, there was some poster about Peru…but that was pretty much it in terms of any sop to internationalism.

    Well, that’s pretty much it. I consider myself one of the lucky ones because despite the RCP, which I concluded was nowhere near the only game in town, I continued to try and be a part of the revolutionary struggle, make some contribution wherever I could, and not give up–certainly not give up on the masses even if at times it appears all is in the toilet. And I am more than happy to see the response to Kasama, and the variance of views but a willingness on the part of most to not give up either. O contrario…or as Bob would undoubtedly say, “au contraire.”

  31. Nando said

    LindaD writes:

    “First of all…re ““The RCP has not developed, ever, a mass partisan political base for revolutionary communist politics anywhere, among any section of the people.” is to me a SLIGHT exaggeration. I think the RCP has had several opportunities to further develop a more mass partisan political base, etc. but the RCP’s dogmatism, sectarianism, and yes, Mike, “siege mentality” has prevented them from applying the mass line in any kind of meaningful way, so that ultimately they are unable to organize and mobilize any kind of revolutionary mass/partisan base.”

    I find this statement confusing.

    The quoted summation (from Letter 2) is pretty catagorical: it says this movement has never developed a base for its politics among any section of the people. A partisan base among the people. And it gives examples of what it doesn’t have: a kreuzberg, a wedding district, a putilov works, a raucana etc. which were historically well known partisan base areas for rev or r.c. politics in various countries.

    The letters make a distinction between this kind of a base (where your party actually represents the people and is seen as their representative) — and situations where c’s have led mass struggles around various demands (like anti-police brutality, or the wildcats in the coalfields, or antiwar coalitions etc), but where the people following them were not particularly pro-revcom in any real mass way.

    Ok. so how is this assessment an exaggeration (slight or not)?

    No supporter of the RCP’s line has ever challenged this summation — which implies to me that it is true. If they had a base for their politics anywhere (or had ever developed one) I believe we would know about it.

    In the second part of your statement, LindaD, you say they had “several opportunities to further develop a more mass partisan political base” but didn’t. This compounds the confusion for me. Are you saying they had a “partisan political base” somewhere — but it was not mass, or?

    So help us understand what you are getting at.

    Are you implying that there have been places and times where there were such partisan political bases where a section of the people felt consciously inclined towards rev com politics? If so where and when?

    And if not, why imply the 9 Letters isn’t accurate on that point?

  32. Nando said

    DWTMI writes:

    “But if anyone has any questions about where his line is leading, just look at all the well-know [sic]and consolidated economists and gradualists who have flocked to his project’s website since it was launched.”

    I am not sure who DWTMI is referring to. But it actually says something about how DMTMI views open discussion. If there is a discussion of politics and all kinds of people come in to comment in many different ways — then the intention of the site’s creators has to be in the direction of the most conservative and reformist among them. After all, what possible reason could you have for allowing “consolidated gradualists” to speak in public (on a website, or in a discussion) unless you INTENDED to go in their direction?

    That assertion is silly, of course. Since you could create a forum where gradualists post — precisely in order to engage their ideas from a rev perspective. You could encourage (for example) supporters of Obama to post in a discussion, in order to engage their views, and even (god forbid) to learn from them about their views.

    Where has the RCP engaged in as interesting an exchange over Obama? In fact where have they engaged in any visible public exchange like that? Not since they suddenly shut down the 2changetheworld site, years ago.

    But think of the logic laid out: If you engage in a political discussion around revolution that draws in non-revolutionaries, liberals and reformers (who express their views) — then that should make you suspect yourself of being liberal, reformist and non-revolutionary. Because (presumably) engaging and attracting non-revolutionary people in discussion is a suspect thing.

    The logic of an encapsulated and self-satisfied bubble. The expression of a political experience where “engaging” liberals is so rare that it seems fishy.

    For all its talk about “wrangling,” “dissent,” and “engaging” there is something skittish about this trend — something deeply frightened of opposing views. You really get the idea that (if they had their way) “consolidated gradualists” or people committed to trade union politics would not be directly engaged.

    And, dare I ask, where would that logic lead if it had state power?

    btw LindaD: when DWTMI talks about “economists” he is not talking aobut people studying economics. He is using his movement’s jargon for people who think that the economic struggle of the workers is the most significant means of bringing the people into political life and struggle. (Some people and some movements are not used to speaking to people who are not steeped in their jargon.)

  33. Linda D. said

    Okay and thanks Nando.

    Let’s talk political jargon first. You’re absolutely correct, although you did say that you weren’t sure who DWTMI was referring to. But I took his statement literally–in conjunction with some posts and responses I’ve read from better-known sources who are in fact economists in the literal sense. Still think I’m right about the RCP’s disdain for anyone who isn’t following their line, hook line and sinker. And with all the testimony on Kasama, don’t think my addition is at all far-fetched.

    So…I just went back and reread Letter 2. And while I can understand better why my use of “slight exaggeration” would be very confusing, I think I was coming off of the part in Letter 2 about the objective situation and the subjective forces, and further confusing real partisan base areas, etc. with some success with building forces in certain campaigns or other political practice/struggle.

    You clarified it best by saying:

    “The letters make a distinction between this kind of a base (where your party actually represents the people and is seen as their representative) — and situations where c’s have led mass struggles around various demands (like anti-police brutality, or the wildcats in the coalfields, or antiwar coalitions etc), but where the people following them were not particularly pro-revcom in any real mass way.”

    In one part of Letter 2, to quote Mike at length:

    “Here is one sign that these objective difficulties are very real: The RCP is hardly the only organized trend to have had trouble. No radical, left or revolutionary forces have gotten durable traction since the ‘70s — not revolutionary Black nationalists, not anarchists, not soft-socialist trade union organizers, not the Greens. Various left trends have also had their moments of influence, but all failed to develop ongoing support for their larger programs. Most have fared far worse than the RCP. Oppositional politics has flowed into loose social and cultural movements that are often organized around pressuring for reforms.

    “The objective conditions are the main reason why there has not been either a mass revolutionary movement or the basis for any actual revolutionary attempts. And these conditions have acted back on the subjective factor (the lines within the party itself) exacerbating now one or another “pull” — sometimes toward non-revolutionary tailing of the mass movements, sometimes toward a sectified acceptance of “puny thinking,” and now increasingly toward rampant wishful thinking.

    “These are errors made by sincere and dedicated revolutionaries operating under frustrating political conditions — but they are errors nonetheless. While the RCP tried to “wrench” all it could out of each moment — practice has fallen very far short of their hopes, and also — I believe — short of what could have been done with different methods and plans.

    There have been long-standing problems of method and approach in the RCP’s work — how it viewed itself, the masses and the revolutionary process — that have all contributed to the overall failure.
    Communists have not yet charted the uncharted course.”

    But when Mike says: “While the RCP tried to “wrench” all it could out of each moment — practice has fallen very far short of their hopes, and also — I believe — short of what could have been done with different methods and plans.” Well, think the latter is true (although the objective situation is key, right?)but in practice, the way I see it is flip flopping between determinism and voluntarism, etc.

    But here’s something I’ve never been comfortable with, and I hope you can set me straight. In terms of some mass activity or even movements that had already been built, e.g. the anti-nuke “movement”, what I heard over and over again was “join forces with these movements to “divert” the struggle.”

    When Letter 2 says, in relation to the newspaper and CPOSP, “There were real controversies over how, and even whether, to use the party’s press among the people. Formally the communist press was seen as the key way of connecting the people to an explicitly communist movement, and “diverting” their understandings. But at various times and places over the decades of the ‘80s and ‘90s, the What-Is-To-Be-Done-ist work around the newspaper took a distant second place behind efforts to lead people in political struggles.”

    Well…Mike’s probably right but from my past experience,”past” being the operative word, don’t quite view it like that, i.e. the work around the newspaper basically taking a back seat to efforts in leading people in political struggle. More often than not, most questions were to be answered by reading some reprint in the RW. On the other hand, I don’t think the RCP made real efforts to “lead” people in political struggle (especially those already engaged in struggle), in any kind of principled way. Instead, and the anti-nuke movement was a glaring example, the RCP’s practice boiled down to–join in in a very peripheral way, and try and usurp power over the existing forces and movement, under the guise of “diverting the struggle.” Instead of uniting forces behind a more revolutionary line, the RCP was 9x out of 10x completely isolated. Besides being suspect by lots of honest forces, their sectarianism isolated them even further. I am not advocating tailing after some movement, or progressive forces, but back then anyway, “diverting the struggle” was open to interpretation and I think the RCP got it wrong. In terms of say the anti-nuke movement, the way I remember it was it wasn’t so much that the RCP didn’t talk revolutionary communist politics, but anyone who wasn’t down for revolution was treated like a pariah, including existing “leaders” and anti-nuke activists.

    (I just flashed on a response about the New Synthesis forum, and how RCP members and supporters were snickering at non-members, or folks who had some legitimate questions. Well magnify that 10-fold when the RCP showed up at some die-in.)

    As I recall, for one of the first times ever, the RCP actually criticized itself (internally at least) for some of its practice in the anti-nuke movement, but of course, most of the blame for error was put on the comrades who were carrying out the leadership’s line and methods.

    One N.B. on this partisan base, etc. is, do any of you remember when there was a banner headline in the RW calling for a PLA? [snip]

    * see moderators note below

    Unfortunately “in the main” (oooh, pulled that one out from some old poltical jargon) the RCP’s methods and practice, have resulted in “…an encapsulated and self-satisfied bubble.” And now our revolutionary political work boils down to promoting B.A. and his theoretical breakthroughs. According to Letter 2, ““The RCP has not developed, ever, a mass partisan political base for revolutionary communist politics anywhere, among any section of the people,” — well, these days, and with the emphasis on Bob, the chances of a mass partisan political base developing are even slimmer.

    I think what has happened with the RCP is a sad situation…Then again…

  34. cassiusghost said

    I have to short here because my day work requires some sleep, but I will give it my best try for the time available.

    Linda D. – thank you for the time frames and recollections of the RCP experience and practice of the early to late eighties. It is precisely this kind of summation that needs to be encouraged, especially among former supporters and members on this board. Perhaps a seperate thread would’ve been better, but let’s deal with each other wherever we find each other.

    I too was involved, for months and years in an area where there was no “party.”

    I was a paper pusher (my term) and open supporter (more like a pain in the ass of some of the local reformists) of revolution in the US – usually showing up with an armload of free literature from different ML groups; Iranian, Chilean, hell even at that time domesticated American sympathizers publishing dogmatic Enver Hoxha rants from Albania. I’d hand’em out, try to keep track of who took what and schedule a follow-up for summing up their thoughts.

    It wasn’t long during this process of investigation that several people became comradely and enjoyed the “anything goes” atmosphere. We’d go up to area campus with literature tables, or hang out in front of factoy gates (back then we had lots to go to without security chasing us off) and distribute all kinds of literature and talk with people.

    I and a small number of friends and trusted workmates (industrialized manufacturing sector) secretly passed the RW around to read, and decided to engage others publically by using the slogans, and only the slogans – say around the colorful May 1st poster toward building a larger group of supporters of revolution. I cannot recall precisely the time, but before the CPOSP line became a pamphlet. We poured over every article, argued over the meaning of a word and the turn of a phrase.

    And we made placing the May 1st poster into a strategic campaign among us – into what we called “guerilla graffitti (sp?) squads” at one point clandestinely have several teams of half a dozen in each team operating throughout the large metro area we targeted.

    The “tactic” was everything to us, getting the posters up – taking no casualties, ever, and keeping at it for several months before the actual May 1st holiday happened.

    Bear in mind this was just one campaign we undertook around the party’s literature, but everybody knew what they were getting into and there was an extremely high cohesive morale maintained with each “victory” won.

    We had numerous “campaigns” like that, never mentioning or distributing in public the “RCP” moniker or speaking for them. It was all sparked off the CPO..SP article which was not a pamphlet at that time. Things developed after that, which when I have more time will elaborate, but here’s the skinny.

    Those were times when revolution was definitely not on the agenda anywhere in the US, but you couldn’t tell us that what we were doing right then wouldn’t popularize it in the future.

    A few years after that it all went to shit in my opinion with the “Revolution in the Eighties, go for it” poster campaign – Avakian and thrusting his line on everybody was the first indicator to me of a personality cult developing; and a significant factor in my serious misgivings.

    The times are now changing, and unfortunately – the objective situation is going to be changing toward much more hardship as the empire collpases around us. Now we have a moribund party that once, long ago, had at least tried at teaching the people how to fight back and win.

    I know, I know – others have said this before here – catastrophism (sp?) and utopianism, primitivie anarchism – etc. climate change, food and fuel shortages (on a worldwide scale), and the end of the American republic are at hand.

    We can’t “regroup and reconceive” for revolution fast enough in my opinion, but I’m not dropping everything and doing anything again for a “party” without some real goddamn democracy in the ranks of the “party.”

    Thanks for kindling my memories Linda D.

    I’ll continue my investigation with other people, sorry to bother you and I really appreciate your words posted on other subjects.

  35. cassiusghost said

    Postscript to the above:

    They “RCP” eventually caught up with me and according to the then current screed – decapitated the group (me) forced relocation (membership waved in my innocent face) to a foreign city – more indoctrination, poverty – and within a few months those leaders who convinced me to relocate they were in turn decapitated and moved off, even as my new group of friends were under some pretty heavy repression.

    I think it was cc policy to nurture the cult, rather than build social, political roots in any given place – other than around the palace grounds, at that time in Chicago.

    We were all young. It won’t happen that way, ever again – a revoltionary political party has got to teach the people how to fight and win – especially when it comes to creating public opinion. That’s just the first baby step toward revolution, but it’s not seperate from building “partisan base areas.”

    If anything it’s the first step.

    later,

  36. Mike E said

    moderator note on Lindad’s remark:

    “One N.B. on this partisan base, etc. is, do any of you remember when there was a banner headline in the RW calling for a PLA?”

    This is not accurate. the RCP published an unsigned piece discussing the principles of a future (and nonexistant) revolutionary army of the proletariat. (RAP) It was not a “call” for forming anything. but a hypothetical, theoretical discussion of something that did not exist.

    this is an important matter to be accurate on for legal reasons: since in the u.s. it is legal to discuss such matters in the hypothetical, but not discuss them in ways that can have immediate and practical effects. (see the brandenburg decision of the supreme court). And the RCP statements on such matters (then and now) were written in order to be legal, and not reckless in an infantile way.

    In 1988, Gonzalo of the Communist Party of Peru (Shining Path) gave an interview where he said it seemed wrong to postpone armed struggle in imperialist countries. This suggested that it was possible to initiate guerilla warfare in all countries. This was very much against the view of the RCP (then and now) — and their public discussion of principles of a future rev army can be seen as staking out a ground in that disagreement: affirming that they were not abandoning plans to make revolution when it was possible, without actually adopting a course suggested by Gonzalo (in a dogmatic way).

    IMHO: gonalo’s remarks were a case of someone forcefully suggesting tactics and strategy from afar, without having done the actual necessary analysis rooted in practice (and an underestimation of the particularity of different countries). He reduced it to matters of will and courage (in a revealing way). The Soviets tried to do dictate tactic and strategy in regard to China in the 1920s-30s, with disasterous effects. Others are doing it now. This is an error that does not generally lead to rev advances.

  37. jojo said

    speaking of guerilla warfare and such, does anyone know what this new article is in reference to?
    Some Crucial Points of Revolutionary Orientation — in Opposition to Infantile Posturing and Distortions of Revolution
    http://revcom.us/a/128/crucialpoints.html

  38. Sam said

    Yes, most likely it was putting out a line in opposition to a speaker at a rally after the Sean Bell verdict. A person was calling for violent action against the police, mostly just a bunch of angry posturing (hence the title). This was most likely an “open letter”, anonymous, polemic against that person.

  39. Jaroslav said

    Actually this article is reprinted from earlier, & was a response to former RC4 tour member who put out a hip-hop album with lyrics describing a possible future urban guerrilla war in US. This album was put out on an independent label which also did a WCW benefit album. The incident lead to the comrades involved being excommunicated from RCPUSA & WCW.

    But as for why it is reprinted now, I’m not sure; it could be the Sean Bell rally hypothesis is correct.

  40. Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv said

    It is reprinted now because it is the starting point of the RCP’s program for revolutionary development. It was reprinted and put together with other parts of their overall orientation in order to communicate, I would think, how it is the RCP intends to develop a revolutionary struggle for power in our situation.

    The article “Infantile Posturing”, in combination with their orientation of “the two mainstays” and “the two tracks”, lays bare the overall conservatism of the RCP’s strategic thinking.

    It is not specifically related to any one speaker or event, though as jaroslav points out, it was first published shortly following a rift with an RCP supporter/member who had refused to censor his music.

  41. Mike E said

    The remarks by Jaroslav and SP above somewhat garble the facts. I am not in a position to sum up this whole incident, but…

    * the song in question did not “describe a future war.” that was not the issue.
    * the rapper was not a member of the RCP at the time of this incident.
    * the issue was not censorship (or refusal to be censored). there had been (as far as I know) no pre-discussion about the song and no demand from the party for censorship of the song. the RCP responded to hearing about the album by abruptly severing ties with the performer and production team.

  42. Iris said

    Commenter in #40:

    How does this reveal conservativism?

    Just trying to keep up!

  43. Sam said

    Dissuading empty threats of violence does not represent conservatism. I had a similar incident recently in my town (assuming what I believe happened is true). A person we work with began calling for harsh action to be taken against the police. It made him look insane and scared people. Not to mention if for some odd reason it did get printed in the newspaper the public outcry would be so loud the anti-police brutality group he and I are a part of would be forced to face incredible repression.

    It’s not conservatism. It’s strategy.

  44. Jaroslav said

    The lyrics to entire album in question are found here. I don’t know which song was the most controversial with the RCPUSA, there is more than one which could prompt an anti-adventurism critique. I also was not involved in the incident, but one thing which really gets me is the whole guilt-by-association thing. As Mike said, the rapper himself was not at the time associated with RCPUSA or WCW. But other people who were, were excommunicated in order to ’sever all ties’.

    I don’t subscribe to the strategy of the Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv / RAF type either (referring here to the actual historical group, not necessarily the comment-poster just now), but I will say that the RCPUSA ironically engages in ‘infantile posturing’ of its own by claiming to be a vanguard party & acting as though it has all the answers. Also, it is odd to re-publish such an article & continually quote from it as something of central importance when adventurism is not exactly the biggest trend out there today, even amongst radical leftists. The fact that they put so much emphasis on it is what seems conservative to me, especially in the context of their actual practise of ‘hasten and await’, in which ‘hasten’ involves debate, traditional so-called ‘protest’ parades (even at times called ‘days of resistance’ when, again, it’s a few hours of militant parading), & the de facto bowing to spontaneity. In sum, adventurism is bad, but the RCPUSA’s strategy isn’t any better, in terms of trying to spark a real revolution.

  45. Mike E said

    I don’t want to hash out the details of this incident — but there was a rather bizarre aspect to this, where these musicians were “made an example of” — shunned and dissed in a way that was extremely harsh and completely unexplained (to them or anyone else).

    It was part of a larger threatening posture of “don’t step out of line” that now surrounds this organization (and is aimed at people within and around it). And this incident also illustrates some of the ways this organization now jumps at shadows, and lightly accuses people of threatening its very existence.

    As for “conservatism” — i think there is some of that involved.

    The RCP used to be bold and militant, its members used to take risks. There used to be a mix of words and actions — and it used to prepare people in combativity and courage.

    But since 9/11, the heat has gone out of that fireplace… this is a cautious, skittish, and highly defensive defensive outfit. It jumps at sudden movements. It has an exaggerated assumption that its every move is watched and stalked. It is convinced that it exists on the edge of potential disaster, and that any false step (any false word, or action on its periphery) could mean the abyss. And it has virtually no mass support to rest upon, to hide among, to rely upon, to draw new strength from.

    The sense of danger that has grown in such hyped ways is based on a half truth.

    The legal conditions have (in fact) worsened in the U.S. since 9/11. There are new legal bases for criminalizing people for political activity and speech. And there are all kinds of new offensive surveillances going on.

    But the RCP also greatly exaggerates the degree to which it is (itself) at the vortext of this. It makes sweeping exaggerations about being perceived as a threat by the system — because it greatly exaggerates the degree to which it IS a threat to this system.

    There is here too (as in so many ways) a circular logic which starts with an assertion (that the party is objectively the greatest threat this system faces, and that, at some level, the ruling class or its agents are conscious of that)… and then (using formal logic) deduces all kinds of conclusions from that initial assertion.

  46. SPK said

    Iris,

    It’s conservative because their program for developing revolutionary consciousness, movement and organization is a project of education/propagandizing, which separates out organizational development and practical tasks. The “two mainstays” of the promotion of Avakian and the newspaper are, they believe, “revolutionary work” in today’s situation. And this relies on the analysis of the situation today as “non-revolutionary”, which ironically requires that much effort be put into educating the inert and “non-revolutionary” masses against infantile posturing and ultra-leftism, or so their logic goes. In other words, a foundational point of reference, which they try to popularize amongst the masses, is to NOT struggle.

    To put it in another sense, the RCP is radically opposed to Mao’s work “On the Peasant Movement in Hunan”. They argue for revolution without excesses, without spontaneous outbreaks of violence from amongst the masses. They in fact spend more time on this argument than they do trying to solve important practical and strategic issues of how it is a revolutionary seizure of power is going to happen. They’re setting the table for a dinner party, not a revolution.

    Their orientation is that eventually, once a revolutionary situation arrives, organizational, tactical and strategic developments will happen rapidly. And of course it will all be handled by the Party, which really means Avakian and a handful sycophants. Until then revolutionary work is not to try and develop strong partisan bases amongst the masses (without getting into what that would mean), nor is it important to develop tactical and strategic connections between mass work in general and later stages of development in a revolutionary movement and organization. Again, their position is that an objective situation will allow a group of people who have patiently “steeped” themselves in Avakian-thought to come from behind in a telescoped way. And at this point the “two tracks” of theory will meet and be put into practice.

    There are two main divisions in the RCP’s orientation. The first is between theory and practice (”theory runs ahead”), and the second is within the realm of theory between the envisioning of future socialism, and then the practical and strategic theoretical work that is needed to get there. The RCP believes that theoretical work and its popularization (i.e. Avakian’s speeches and writings) are the task of the day. This is radically divorced from practice and the struggles of the masses, which are defined as being either economist and reformist or ultra-left and terroristic. The latter is posed even as the RCP maintains that the situation is “non-revolutionary”. That is, there is a danger of the masses spontaneously developing struggles in that direction, and this must be fought against because such spontaneous actions of the masses would endanger the RCP. At the same time, the reformist struggle is constantly castigated. The singular message is that the RCP, and then Avakian in particular, have got everything covered. They have the Party, the leadership, and the ideology. If you want to change the world, you got to get with them. Etc.

    Additionally, within the emphasis on theory, there is a division into “two tracks” between strategic and practical theory (the HOW of revolution), and then Avakian’s musings on past and future socialism. Only in the context of “The Time” may these two tracks of theory meet up and be put into practice, which is to say that “legal marxism” requires that even within the realm of theory the strategic and practical matters of seizing power are to be set aside relative to the kind of utopian conjecture that Avakian is putting forward on a regular basis.

    There is an ironic reliance on spontaneity in the development of the objective situation, while at the same time they are working to divert the subjectivity of the masses AWAY from struggle and into the hall of mirrors that is the RCP these days. Simultaneously they have been objectively demobilizing sections of people who were once committed to making revolution, through all the mechanisms that people here know so well. In other words they strangle the revolution in its “infantile” crib, in order to “save it”.

    This is conservative because the situation allows, I believe, for a more integrated approach, which is more militant, more nimble, and more deeply rooted in the struggles of the masses today. This would be MUCH more risky than simply promoting Avakian’s abstract musings on a future socialism while posing as if you are under attack, because if we were to REALLY do revolutionary work, we would indeed find ourselves under attack fairly quickly, relative to our own impact and effectiveness. But the whole point of a revolutionary organization worth the name is that it is capable of navigating that struggle with the State without being crushed. This contradiction is one of the core problematics of revolution. RCP simply ditches the struggle, thereby ensuring that the only “attacks” aimed at them will be coming from the ghosts and shadows that they box with.

    Of course the accusation would come forward from RCP circles that doing anything beyond what they’re now doing constitutes ultra-leftism and infantile posturing or its extreme opposite of reformism and capitulation, but such a position relies on a familiar logic in the RCP that poses things in strict dualities, that is, if you are not doing the RCP program then you are either completely giving up on revolution or you are moving in the direction of the very mistaken tactics and strategic thinking of groups like the WU in the 60’s.

    Are we to believe that the only options for revolution are the movementist line of getting the truck moving and then steering, the RCP line of steering a truck sitting on concrete blocks in Avakian’s front yard, or an ultra-left line of urban guerrilla war?

    The reality is that the world doesn’t work like that, it’s not black and white, and it certainly doesn’t divide itself in relation to RCP subjectivity. To put it another way, supporters of the RCP are carefully schooled in the assumption that the mere suggestion that they are conservative (for instance) means that the person making such an argument must then be fighting for a program of infantile posturing or worse. In a similar way, to criticize the RCP’s aloofness from the struggles of the day of course means that you are fighting for an economist or reformist program.

    In reality there are gradations in the struggle with the State. It’s not all or nothing at every point in the struggle. Moreover the posing of violence against non-violence is a canard. The idea that the only effective or truly revolutionary struggle with the State is one informed by violence, is in fact an immature, even infantile, idea. The RCP accepts a series of infantile assumptions in order to argue against “infantile posturing”. Additional evidence of this particularly infantile assumption about revolution comes in the response of many RCP supporters to the events in Nepal.

    The point is this, to not try and develop the sharpening contradictions of the day into a strong and flexible revolutionary movement and organization with the ability to withstand the attacks of the State, while instead musing on socialism and waiting for the situation to eventually flip over into a “revolutionary situation”, is setting revolutionaries up to miss the chance if it was to ever come. Or to sharpen up the point, the RCP now wants to focus on theory, but the question is not theory versus practice, but how your theory relates to or unleashes a revolutionary practice. In this respect one should ask “theory for what?” Where does the RCP’s theory lead? As far as I can tell the only connection between Avakian’s most recent theorizing, and revolution, is the constant refrain and assurance that “everything we are doing is about revolution”. The lady doth protest too much.

    Ultimately the RCP’s line is conservative because more can be done. The RCP clearly believes that the most important thing to do is to survive pending the development of a revolutionary situation. This is very much related to the analysis on Christian Fascism (which has still not been renounced) and the idea that a major clampdown is coming and it is necessary to change political practices in anticipation of that. And they believe that the only work that can be responsibly done in this “non-revolutionary” situation is promoting Avakian and the newspaper. All their “fighting the power” is instrumentally related to these “two mainstays”. And they are willing to alienate significant sections of radicals and the middle strata in pursuing this auto-pilot program, while simultaneously writing off large swathes of the basic masses.

    It wreaks of capitulation to me, and it is all the more odious as so many of their supporters are running around accusing everyone from the Nepalese to this website of the very capitulation which they seem to be heading for.

    Mike,

    My main point was that the article on “Infantile Posturing” is not mainly directed at any one person or event, particularly in the reprinting of it.

  47. SPK said

    Despite my momentarily chosen moniker, I also do not support the politics of Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv.

  48. BobH said

    Mike Ely says:

    In 1988, Gonzalo of the Communist Party of Peru (Shining Path) gave an interview where he said it seemed wrong to postpone armed struggle in imperialist countries. This suggested that it was possible to initiate guerilla warfare in all countries.

    I think this is a mischaracterization. I don’t think Mike’s done his homework on Gonzalo Thought, which is not too surprising since very few people in the U.S. left seem to have done that. It’s been a while since I studied this, but the basic line of MLM-GT was that the purpose of Communist parties was to prepare for peoples’ wars and to initiate them as soon as practical. Along with this there was a criticism of ‘letter head’ parties which of course many people understood to be a problem with some groups in RIM.

    In Peru, the history of the focoist movements of the 60s were not condemned as revisionist or adventurist, but as part of the history of the struggles of the people to be learned from. Regarding the imperialist countries, in the “International Line” (if memory serves), there was a discussion of how to view the experience of armed struggle in the metropolitan countries. It was suggested that the experience of anti-fascist partisans, as well as various nationalist and urban guerrilla struggles after WW-II, needed to be studied and understood as part of the question of understanding people’s war as a universal theory, rather than waiting around for insurrection. There was no peremptorary call for armed struggle without a plan, however.

    On a related note, I know that in the late 80s, AWTW magazine published an article called something like “The False Path of the Urban Guerrilla”, which focused on the RAF as the prototype of all these movements as a way of rejecting all such struggle in developed countries. That struck me as really a kind of straw-man argument, as many struggles seemed to have very different characteristics and line (e.g. the nationalist based ones in Ireland and Spain/Euskadi, or the more communist struggles by the PCE(r) in Spain). Furthermore there was a lack of acknowledgement of the need to oppose the repression against prisoners/supporters of these movements that bordered on the opportunist.

    I am not advocating these kinds of struggles, btw, but I am suggesting that the palpable aversion to studying anything about them in RCP circles struck me as very strange in the 1980s, but not so strange in hindsight.

  49. BobH said

    Oops, sorry about using the wrong tag in the quote.

  50. antiimperialistgrrl said

    This is a wonderful example of the RCPs style of “criticism”.

    Notice their tendency to call people who don’t agree with them names, and then not provide supporting evidence that would prove that the name was fitting and called for:

    * Mike Ely was called a Menshevik and a Flat Earther, also he was accused of being motivated
    by careerism and opportunism. They go so far to say “…Mike Ely, high priest of the
    Menshevik Inquisition…”.

    Notice that the writer insinuates a lot but proves little:

    * The writer says in the first paragraph that some people think that social movements grow in
    a linear progression, but really they don’t, therefore Mike Ely’s criticism of the RCP
    having no bases among the people in the US is unscientific. Never did they provide us, the
    readers, with any evidence that Ely himself believes that social movements develop in a
    linear fashion. This is a A+B=C therefore D=C argument. In other words it is not logical.

    Also worth noting are the overgeneralizations (a.k.a pomp and bonbast).
    * The writer equates Mike Ely’s political line with accusing the RCP of murdering millions of
    people in prison camps. Also makes numerous attempts to equate his political line as
    revisionist.

    A suggestion to the RCP on how to better conduct criticism in the future:

    * Look, if someone is a Nazi, by all means call them a Nazi- but you have to provide your
    audience with some convincing evidence to prove your accusation. Lobbing accusations without
    justifying yourself deligitimizes your argument and is not very “scientific”.

    The letter writer has exemplified the very methodology that is so very wrong in the RCP, uncritical thinking, unscientific reasoning.

Leave a Reply

XHTML: You can use these tags: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <pre> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>