Reply to a Challenge over Iran
Posted by Mike E on June 23, 2009
The Kasama essay ” A question to the left on Iran: Can the people make history or not?” appeared as an opinion piece on “Links: International Journal for Socialist Renewal.” In response, a thoughtful challenge was posted called “A Question for Mike Ely” (AQME). The author of this challenge chose to remain anonymous.
I would like to answer some of the key issues raised by this AQME commentary. I will excerpt pieces of AQME below and follow each with a brief response. To see the full text of AQME, read it on the Links site.
AQFME:
“The Iranian government is “reactionary”? What are the most reactionary governments in the Middle East? Israel, Saudi Arabia, Egypt. In fact, what country in the whole Middle East is more democratic and anti-imperialist than the Islamic Republic of Iran? Syria? Morocco? Turkey? Need I continue?”
Mike Ely:
My understanding is rather sharply different. All of the countries you mention, including Iran, are deeply emeshed in the imperialist system. I don’t see any of them as any “more anti-imperialist” than the other.
In all of them, except for Israel, the people suffer terribly from the dynamics of that imperialist system. Israel, an artificial settler state, is a different creature — it is dependent on imperialism for its very existence, and is propped up to serve as a key proxy power enforcing the odious “stability of this strategic region. (After the fall of the Shah of Iran, the U.S. has sought as strategic “three legged stool” regioinally — rooted in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Israel, with Egypt heavily-funded into a corrupt passivity.)
There is a long history of states in this region aligning first with one, then with another imperialist power — jumping blocs, shifting alliances. For example, Saddam Hussein’s Iraq over the 70s and 80s switched sides in the international conflict between the U.S. and Soviet dominated war blocs.
Iran was very closely aligned with the U.S. before 1979 (under the Shah). After the emergence of the Islamic theocracy, those ties weakened. Iran was no longer seen as a stable U.S. “strategic partner,” and it no longer played a direct role as an American military proxy (as the Shah did in Oman etc.)
But covert relations continue between Iran and both the U.S. and Israelis — based on a common growing strategic opposition to Iraq’s government. I have written elsewhere reminding readers of the crucial role that this covert Israeli-Iranian connect played in the famous Iran-Contra scandal of the Reagan years.
In subsequent years, the Iranian theocrats have strengthened their strategic relations with a second tier of imperialists (specifically Russia, Germany and France) — relations built through trade that mocked U.S. calls for embargo, marked by European opposition to U.S.-Israeli war threats, and based on common strategic interests.
There is nothing anti-imperialist about any of this. It is the political superstructure of an economy integrated into the imperialist world markets.
Some people equate public “anti-U.S.” rhetoric in the third world with “anti-imperialism.” And using similar methods, they once painted the Soviet bloc of the 1970s as “progressive,” and since have attempted prettify oppressive states like North Korea’s feudo-revisionist monarchy, Serbia’s chauvinist Milosovic regime in the 1990s, or Iran’s oppressive theocracy now.
But we don’t live in a uni-polar world where the U.S. is the only imperialist operating. Imperialism is a economic world system — it has (historically and inevitably) different conflicting centers within it, and minor states have always found themselves pressured to align with one against the other — in the constant rivalries.
The current Iranian government has (especially since the U.S. occupation of Iraq) come into sharp strategic conflict with the U.S. But that hardly makes them “anti-imperialist” in any sense that matters — and it certainly doesn’t change their acutely reactionary character vis-à-vis their own people.
AQFME:
There is a media campaign against Iran since 1979 because the Iranian government is anti-imperialist and nationalist.
Mike Ely:
The media campaign against Iran was conducted because the rise of Iran’s Islamic republic broke an important strategic alliance that the U.S. had relied on to dominate the Middle East.
The weakening of such alliances, at that time (1979), was part of a rising global crisis within the world system — as U.S.-Soviet rivalry both polarized international relations and (also, secondarily) gave some smaller states more “room” to play off one power against the other.
That previous “room” was affected by the collapse of the Soviet Union — and the U.S. believed it has a historic opening to make outrageous and unprecedented demands for unipolar hegemony over the whole world. Some smaller countries found outside that hegemony were dubbed “rogue states” and “the axis of evil” — but under the surface of Bush’s rhetoric, the main challenge to American hegemony has (all along) centered on the emerging strength of capitalist China, the slowly-gathering strategic recovery of Russia, and the long-term strategic interests of Western Europe.
Iran’s rhetorical defiance of the U.S. cannot be seen apart from the larger divisions and emerging rivalries within the world imperialist system.
AQFME:
I would think that the US Congress vote to support Mousavi’s demonstrators would be taken as a sufficient certification of what his movement represents.
Mike Ely:
No. You can’t look at some paper resolution of the U.S. Congress and deduce (certify) the nature, meaning or essence of complex events. The world is not that simple. And this highlights the ways certain arguments are rooted in a negation of thinking and analysis.
First, The U.S. hopes for “regime change” in Iran — especially to help consolidate U.S. control in Iraq. And (from that perspective) supports the uprising in Iran. But that does not define that uprising, or determine its character.
Second, you continually equate the upsurge in Iran with Mousavi and his program. As if “what his movement represents” defines the demands and potential of a defitant popular uprising. This is a serious misunderstanding. The events the election called into being need not end up serving one side or another within the Iranian establishment (or serving the U.S. imperialists either).
Third, the U.S. has historically supported many movements that undermine governments or rival powers. Not all of them were crude U.S. proxies. (The Nicaragua contras come to mind as an example of paid CIA proxies.)
But this is not always the case that the U.S. only supports forces that are inherently and profoundly pro-U.S. or “pro-imperialist.” World War 2, in particular, is full of counter examples. The U.S. supported many movements that opposed Japanese and German imperialism — and supported them with arms and funds. And many of them turned out to be rather revolutionary — including Ho Chi Minh’s Viet Minh in Vietnam and Mao’s communist forces in Yenan. It also included radical nationalist forces in Indonesia and the Philippines. By your method, the simple fact of U.S. support would “certify” that they represent something “pro-imperialist.”
Here is the essence of it: Imperialist powers like the U.S. seek to undermine and destabilize government that don’t serve their particular strategic interests. That subversive process (which amounts to forms of covert political and economic warfare) often encourages internal political movements of various complextions. And the conflict also often encourages political turmoil among the masses of people — that can generate openings for all kinds of political expression (including radical, revolutionary expressions).
It is not true that the undermining of the Islamic Republic can only serve U.S. interests. It may very well help drag millions of Iranian people into political life — and create openings for politics and events that serve none of the existing governments and powers.
AQFME:
Why would we be “prettifying” the Iranian government by pointing out simple factual information – that the US media anti-Islamic Republic campaign is based on seeking to overturn the gains of the 1979 revolution?
Mike Ely:
The very idea that there are “gains” of 1979, that the U.S. wants to “overturn” is bizarre to me — and goes far beyond mere “prettifying.”
The revolution of 1979 was a broad, popular revolutionary movement against the brutal U.S. agent, the Shah of Iran. That revolution ended when the Islamist forces came to dominate it. It was crushed by their consolidating theocracy. Progressive, secular, revolutionary and communist forces were persecuted and driven from the political stage by harsh repression.
Though the Iranian Islamists used (and still use) “revolutionary” rhetoric — they imposed a brutal theocratic state, imposing truly feudal thinking and odious social conditions on the people by fascist means.
What possible “gains” can you be talking about? The veil? The sexual segregation of life? The creation of fundamentalist surveillance networks and vigilante committees that snoop into people’s intimacies and thoughts? The harassment of women on the street for not covering enough, or for showing makeup, or for being out alone? The intense restriction of thought and culture — and the promotion of only the slavishly conformist and submissive cultural expressions? The Koranic law conserning rape, or theft, or thought, or education? The rounding up, torture, humiliation and execution of any progressive or communist they could capture?
AQFME:
Were we prettifying Saddam Hussein when we opposed the US invasion of Iraq?
Mike Ely:
Some people did prettify Saddam Hussein — and still do — using assumptions, methods and misrepresentations similar to the AQFME piece. The fact is that Saddam Hussein was a creature of imperialism — one of the U.S. henchmen who, like Noriega, or Diem, was cut loose and targeted when he fell afoul of his original masters.
The burden on us (particularly here in the U.S.) is to oppose, with special focus, moves designed to strengthen and consolidate the most oppressive and powerful empire in world history — U.S. imperialism. And there is a great deal to be done in regard to war threats (and war justifications) against Iran.
However sharply and firmly opposing the U.S. invasion of Iraq — and now the real threats against Iran — does not require the slightest misrepresentation of often-ugly regimes as somehow “progressive” and “anti-imperialist.”
It is possible to simply say “we must not support big dogs brutalizing small dogs.”
AQFME:
Ahmadinejad, himself born into rural poverty, clearly has the support of the poorer classes, especially in the countryside, where nearly half the population lives. Why? In part because he pays attention to them, makes sure they receive some benefits from the government and treats them and their religious views and traditions with respect. Mousavi, on the other hand, the son of an urban merchant, clearly appeals more to the urban middle classes, especially the college-educated youth… Why is there so little discussion of the issue of class in this election?… I’m a worker, and a former union organizer. When I watched the videos and viewed the photos of the pro-Mousavi rallies in Tehran and other cities, I didn’t feel elated – I felt a chill.
Mike Ely:
There is no reason we should adopt such crude reductionist class politics. Often hangmen and butchers are elevated from among the poor — while lofty revolutionaries often emerged from among the more educated.
The changes the world needs will not be wrung out of surly revenge populism or trumpeting most backward sentiments found among the rural poor. It will come from a fusion of history’s most enlightened thinking with the radicalism of a movement truly serving the oppressed.
You write that Ahmadinejad treats ” religious views and traditions with respect.” Is that what you call a theocracy? “Respect” for the poor?
Here in the U.S., the ugliest Christian fundamentalist forces also play at populist “cultural wars” — raging against the “elites” of New York, and the supposed anti-biblical arrogance of the college educated. Anti-semitism has always played on a hatred of the rich and cosmopolitan. Similar “respect” for the most backward of America’s rural culture would leave women barefoot and pregnant, and Black people facing separate water fountains.
I spent years as a communist organizer in the coalfields of America’s rural bible belt and understand well how fundamentalist religion is exploited for sinister purposes. And I feel no “chill” when anti-government actions erupt first among the urban and educated. That’s how new politics and movements often erupt.
Perhaps your view of socialist politics requires a kneejerk hostility toward the middle classes, toward college students, or toward bohemians and yuppies. But there is no reason to embrace those prejudices.
AQFME:
“A big issue in …is how to interpret Article 44 of the country’s constitution. That article states that the economy must consist of three sectors: state-owned, cooperative and private, and that “all large-scale and mother industries” are to be entirely owned by the state…. In 2004, Article 44 was amended to allow for some privatization. Just how much, and how swiftly that process should proceed, is a fundamental dividing line in Iranian politics. Mousavi has promised to speed up the privatization process. And when he first announced he would run for the presidency, he called for moving away from an “alms-based “ economy (PressTV, 4/13/09), an obvious reference to Ahmadinejad’s policies of providing services and benefits to the poor.”
Mike Ely:
You see the struggle between state capitalism and privatization as some big dividing line. But capitalism reorganizes itself constantly — with different trends and fashions emerging to serve the restructuring of the moment.
Ahmadinejad’s policies provide some “services and benefits” to the poor? Perhaps. That kind of paternalistic trickledown is a quite common technique for the political stabilization of resource-rich countries — certainly Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are good examples. Or Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. So what? Does such that make them less reactionary? More anti-capitalist? More defensible? Less odious?
AQFME:
The whole idea that tossing Ahmadinejad out of office would make it easier to change U.S. policy toward Iran is, in my opinion, very naive.
Mike Ely:
I have not heard anyone put forward this naive argument — i.e. I suspect it is a straw man.
My personal enthusiasm for the upsurge in Iran is that it carries with it possibilities for the development of a new revolutionary generation there — which may accomplish much in the future.
Further: The 1980s combination of U.S./CIA support for the Afghanistan fundamentalists killers and the rise of Islamist theocracy in Iran did much to boost reactionary fundamentalist politics over secular leftist politics in major parts of the world. And I believe that the popular discrediting of Iran’s Islamic dictatorship will help undermine and reverse that influence of politicized Islam globally — and help open more openings for more secular and revolutionary popular movements.
And finally, as a basic stand rooted in a whole structure of analysis, I believe we should affirm that it is just when people rebel against reactionaries. And people rising up should not stand alone.






redflags said
Here’s the PSL Marcyite analysis that Imperialists do not embrace true revolutionary movements.
So we should not notice the US arming the Soviet Union in WW2 thorugh lend-lease, arming Mao in China and Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam – all to fight against German/Japanese imperialism. Let’s not also forget the US “support” of Spain, Puerto Rico and the Philippines against Spanish imperialism. Or German Nazi support of anti-British sentiment. Or the Japanese “East Asis Co-Prosperity Sphere” against European encroachment (and for their own). I’m left to wonder what alternate universe PSL and WWP live in. Didn’t the British claim to liberate india from its former rules? The list is ever endless.
This stupid, stupid and historically wrong politics are the literal death of communism’s “ruthless critique of all that exists,” an abdication of our responsiblity to build independent, internationalist and communist forces and, in its embrace of Islamic theocratic violence against MILLIONS of Iranian people fed up with the ayatollahs, Sam Marcy’s neo-Trotskyite, authoritarian meat-headed politics enters its terminal phase.
When you support Iranian theocracy (which is actively collaborating with US imperialism in Iraq), neo-liberal racists like Milosevic, Korean hereditary monarchy and the police-state workshop of international capitalism known as China – you are utterly lost in the world. You are no threat to imperialism. You are, in fact, assisting a very particular vision where US imperial hegeony is given a dignity is has never earned.
chegitz guevara said
This (AQME & PSL) is a typical example of applying ideology to reality and creating an answer rather than applying reality to your ideology and discovering an answer. It is mind boggling to me that anyone could even think of supporting the theocratic regime against its own people.
Koba said
@Redflags:
I suppose in the PSL analysis what makes current US support of the Iranian opposition different than those historical examples is that it is not an effort effort to counter a rival imperialist power that has major influence within the country the way they maneuvered against: Spain (Philippines, Puerto Rico), Japan (Philippines again, Indonesia), Vichy France (Vietnam), Nazi Germany/Axis (Soviet Union, Spanish Republicans). To the PSL there is just US imperialism encircling Iran, a country that threw out its foreign rulers in 1979, with the looming threat of invasion and/or proxy rule, i.e. the reconquest of Iran. No other contradictions weigh in, everything MUST be framed within the context of US imperialism vs the World. It doesn’t even matter that while Iran postures “united front against US imperialism” it is in the end a shrewd player in a game of realpolitik and shifting alliances. Think of the deep backdoor complicity of Iran supporting and funding the Dawa collaborators in Iraq and the subsequent cleansing of Sunnis. Quite the “objective blow to US imperialism.”
Imagine if there were a popular uprising in Sudan against the ruling regime. Should Marxists cheer on the genocide in Darfur because Sudan is “objectively” opposing US imperialism by resisting foreign pressure? Think of the crimes that suddenly become “progressive” when this logic is imposed.
yassamine said
I agree with Mike Elly’s comments but I would add the following:
The calls for a general strike , sit ins and other forms of civil disobedience are gaining momentum and the protests have now clearly spread to many provincial cities and even smaller towns, while the regime is getting more repressive and contrary to the claims by the ignorant apologists of the Iranain regime and some reporters , demonstrations were and not dominated by the middle classes . In fact Iran does not possess such a huge middle class and even last week they only joined the protests after the presence numbers of poorer classes assured them that there was safety in numbers.
Those of us who recognise Iranian classes from the accents of those giving slogans in demonstrations have not had any doubts about the predominance of working class and wage earning classes (teachers, nurses , public employees.. ) in recent protests but for the sake of those idiots who have no knowledge of Iran and who keep telling us the demonstrators are ‘middle class’ let me explain some basic facts.
If you live in a country where the ministry of Labour claims over 80%of the working force are employed by contracts and the same ministry keeps reassuring every capitalist that by 2010, 100% of the workforce will be on contracts, who do you think will join protest demonstrations ? The working class.
If you live in a country where despite repression there has been over 4000 workers protests against privatisations, job losses(30% unemployment) , high rate of inflation (over 25%) by all means including sit-ins, kidnap of managers, strikes and workers demonstration (between March 2008 and March 2009) , who do you think will join protest demonstrations ? The working class.
If you live in a country that has been praised by the International Monetary Fund as the best example of pursuing new liberal economic policies of the world capitalist order, all of it under a certain Mr Ahmadinejad , who do you think will join protest demonstrations ? The working class.
If you live in a country where teachers and nurses have waged at least four major strikes in the last two years against their government’s economic and political stance, who do you think will join protest demonstrations ? Teachers and nurses , an integral part of the Iranian working class.
zerohour said
Arthur quotes: “The U.S. supported many movements that opposed Japanese and German imperialism — and supported them with arms and funds. And many of them turned out to be rather revolutionary — including Ho Chi Minh’s Viet Minh in Vietnam and Mao’s communist forces in Yenan.”
The lesson I draw is that you can’t infer the political nature of a movement solely based on who supports it, since they may have their own cynical reasons for doing so. This does not change the nature of US imperialism, and we should not mistakenly consider it a force for progress.
Arthur said
Sorry, accidentally hit submit before comment on that blockquote.
It should be added that US imperialist support for communist led revolutionary movements against Japanese and German imperialism was fully reciprocated. There was notoriously a stragegic alliance during the war against fascism.
Alternating periods of temporary and conditional unity and antagonistic struggle between bourgeois and proletarian forces have been characteristic of an entire historical epoch because both sides have been in conflict with feudal and fascist reaction as well as with each other.
This was once reasonably well understood (though always with major errors in alternating directions).
Mao Tsetung especially developed a coherent theorization of understanding both the necessity of independence and initiative and preparedness against betrayal when in a united front with bourgeois and imperialist allies against more reactionary opponents on the one hand and the utter absurdity of rejecting alliances on the other.
The generation that came into the movement at the time of the Vietnam war naturally had a one sided understanding of US imperialism as only an enemy and never an ally. Just as the generation that came into the movement during the war against fascism found it difficult to imagine the Soviet Union as an enemy, the sixties generation had no difficulty recognizing the reactionary character of Soviet revisionism but were especially struck by its collaboration with US imperialism and never really understood Mao’s shift identifying Soviet imperialism and social fascism as the main enemy and towards alliance with bourgeois democratic forces including US imperialism against social fascism following the strategic defeat of US imperialism in Vietnam.
The openly social fascist politics so widespread among people claiming to be “left” today has now got to the point of identifying with any reactionary that mouths off against US imperialism. The identification is real, not just a “mistake” – they really are on the same side on the issues that really matter to them because these people quite simply are not “left” or even mildly “progressive” and have an underlying sympathy for the more reactionary and oppressive forms of bourgeois rule exemplified by soviet social fascism, baathist iraq and clericalist iran.
The collapse of Maoism following the defeat in China left the field wide open to theoretical confusion with both the Albania liners and RCP essentially rejecting Mao’s conception of the united front.
Iran in 1979 marked a key turning point with large sections of the “left” rallying an anti-modernist reaction in Iran led by Khomeiny on the grounds that it was anti-US. A conception of the US as the “Great Satan” became common. This had immediate disasterous consequences in Iran and long term legacy world wide.
Hopefully after 3 decades Iran in 2009 could mark another turning point.
There is very little that can be said in rejecting unity with the Mullahs against the Iranian people that should not have been said, loud and clear, against unity with Baathists and takfiris and Taliban against the Iraqi and Afghan peoples.
QM said
what was the Maoist take on Hungary in 1956, why different now?
Tell No Lies said
Those who think we can determine the character of different forces in Iran based on who supports them in the US might want to check out the following:
http://www.davidduke.com/general/are-you-ready-for-war-with-demonized-iran_10704.html
or
Arthur said
TNL, yes that link is fascinating. On the other hand it does shed some light on different forces in the US…
The ideological convergence between loonie right and pseudo-left is quite glaring. The substance of both their policy and analysis is very similar, dressed up only with different symbols, historical allusions and side issues. This first became notorious at the time of the Kuwait war when far right groups had no difficulty associating with the anti-war movement but could still be distinguished from its mainstream. Its no longer easy to make that distinction when the right’s talking points from http://www.antiwar.com/ are also the pseudo-left’s talking points.c
On Iran nobody but the loonie right and pseudo left takes the posturing for a US military attack seriously. It obviously simply isn’t an option but just disinformation, partly to add to the regime’s costs of dispersing and burying military installations against the mere possibility of bombing, but mainly to assist the Israeli government in neutralizing internal opposition to pulling out of the West Bank by presenting Iran as a more important enemy than the Palestinians.
But on Iraq the preparations for war were very real and the only forces that could have derailed it were on the (mainstream) right who had a real stake in continuing the old policy of “stability”. Bush successfully neutralised the right by a focus on WMDs instead of destabilization of the whole region and being as irritating as possible to left liberals whose opposition to the war could be relied on to defuse the more natural right wing opposition (except for the far right) while remaining completely ineffectual.
If it HAD been an imperial war of conquest against the Iraqi people there would of course have been both an Iraqi resistance and an anti-war movement led by a powerful left as demonstrated by Vietnam, which rendered any such project literally unthinkable and absurd – suitable only for the vivid imaginations of the pseudos.
Since there WAS no Iraqi resistance but only a bunch of fascist mass murderers at war with the Iraqi people, what remained was the sort of pathos exemplified by half-hearted attempts to organize an anti-war movement that could not work for defeat or support victory for the enemy – with leftists offering the excuse that they weren’t actually supporting the fascist mass murder of Iraqi civilians but “merely” opposing American troops “interfering”. This was so unconvincing nobody but the hard core pseudos could actually put much energy into it while others just contented themselves with muttering against Bush.
Now you are faced with a real difficulty distinguishing allegedly “left” anti-imperialism from the sort of America First stuff spouted by the far right. The “challenge” to that here is more than welcome, but there would be no need to argue this elementary stuff if you were not still stuck with the consequences of having gone along with the right wing opposition on Iraq.
Stanley W. Rogouski said
Since there WAS no Iraqi resistance but only a bunch of fascist mass murderers at war with the Iraqi people, what remained was the sort of pathos exemplified by half-hearted attempts to organize an anti-war movement that could not work for defeat or support victory for the enemy – with leftists offering the excuse that they weren’t actually supporting the fascist mass murder of Iraqi civilians but “merely” opposing American troops “interfering”.
Are you saying there was no Iraqi resistence at all, or simply no united opposition?
It’s really very difficult to untangle everything that went (is going) on under the American occupation in Iraq. It strikes me that there are some legitimate nationalist forces in Iraq (Sadr, for example) that have made some attempt to organize. There were also some old Baathist forces that did attack American troops instead of Iraqis. Then there were a lot of foreign Jihadis running around attacking Iraqi Shiites.
Who can really unpack all of it but you’re right. Who in Iraq could Americans get behind?
As far as the anti-war movement in the US goes, I think you can break it down into two phases. In 2002 and 2003, there was a real energy in the streets that partly came out of the remnents of the anti-globalization movement and partly came out of the anger over the stolen election in 2000. It was warped and controlled by Answer and UPFJ but it did seem real.
Then in 2005, when there was a resurgence of the anti-war movement, it just seemed halfhearted and coservative. “Support the Troops. Bring them Home.” And it just died when the Democrats took congress in 2006.
As for the David Duke video, I agree with you. Ron Paul, Justin Raimondo, Paul Craig Roberts, all of the same right wing (and I guess you might call them “objectively anti-imperialist”) forces inside the US are the same ones defending the Iranian regime now.
And James Petras is another case alogether. I noticed last year he seemed to be going off the deep end where Israel was the source of everything going wrong in the world. Everything in his mind was a zionist conspiracy. Now Petras (without having been on the ground in Iran) is accusing the protesters in the streets as being Zionist/CIA stooges.
With friends like this etc…..
Stanley W. Rogouski said
Since there WAS no Iraqi resistance but only a bunch of fascist mass murderers at war with the Iraqi people, what remained was the sort of pathos exemplified by half-hearted attempts to organize an anti-war movement that could not work for defeat or support victory for the enemy – with leftists offering the excuse that they weren’t actually supporting the fascist mass murder of Iraqi civilians but “merely” opposing American troops “interfering”.
That being said, of course, there have been real anti-imperialist forces that have used terrorism against their own civilians in an attempt to “heighten the contradictions” or to “punish collaborators” and this goes right back to the American Revolution where there were massacres of loyalists.
entdinglichung said
good article Mike … another interesting feature is, how western companies are directly supporting the repression in Iran, e.g. the case of Siemens-Nokia who provided “‘lawful-interception’ software for voice calls” for the Iranian Regime
Maz said
One of the scarier things about the Nokia story being that the compnay reps said this is nothing out of the ordinary, as nearly all countries require wireless networks be set up in such a way that this sort of interception/monitoring is possible. So even if illegal, countries are demanding at least the option to turn on big brother mode at any given time.
Arthur said
Stanley,
The movement that “did seem real” (and had demonstrations twice as large as the largest Vietnam demonstrations) arose because people who knew nothing about Iraq and understood nothing about (intentionally confusing) US policy actually believed the US had launched a war of conquest against the Iraqi people (with the explanation being that Bush was insane), despite the fact that any such war would obviously start with mass opposition much wider than Vietnam and rapidly build from there.
It collapsed within weeks when people discovered they really didn’t know what was going on. Supporters of the Vietnamese resistance knew a LOT more about the war than supporters of the US aggression and were able to build a movement starting with teach-ins etc. But as soon as anyone serious started doing actual research on Iraq with a view to building a movement they quickly found there was no “resistance” they could support and that the broadest anti-American coalition ever assembled in the region – from the Kurdish nationalists and Iraqi Communist Party through the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood to the Shia Islamist parties Daawa and SCIRI allied with Iran were all involved in a desperate life or death struggle with the Baath fascists and takfiris that the US invaders were also fighting. The choice was either to get behind them or just keep mouthing off against Bush without doing anything effective to actually support the fascists. Most just drifted away.
What remained was just vague conspiracy theories and dire predictions but nothing anybody could build a mass anti-war movement around.
As for Sadr, I wouldn’t characterize him as either a legitimate nationalist force or a fascist mass murderer (though elements close to him were involved in ethnic cleansing of Sunnis that came close to mass murder). I would characterize him as the same sort of fascist thug as are active in Iran under the name Basij. Both his thuggery and his anti-imperialist posturing is of substantially the same character as theirs.
As far as I can make out the difference is that there are no US troops involved in Iran so you don’t have blinkers on that prevent you seeing the obvious about the Basij whereas the presence of US troops made it easy to kid yourself about Sadr.
Mike E said
[Moderator note: Arthur is part of a small circle who troll here periodically to uphold U.S. imperialism and its military invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. They have been told (repeatedly, politely, patiently) that this forum does not exist to debate their pro-imperialist politics (even if those neo-con views come wrapped in pseudo-leftist explanations.) Such comments will be removed.]
Arthur said
Sadr is a right wing thug of exactly the same type as the Basij in Iran. Repeatedly, politely and patiently removing comments highlighting the radical inconsistentcy between supporting bourgeois democratic revolution in Iran and opposing it in Iraq does not make the absurdity less stark.
Libertarian Lurker said
“As for the David Duke video, I agree with you. Ron Paul, Justin Raimondo, Paul Craig Roberts, all of the same right wing (and I guess you might call them “objectively anti-imperialist”) forces inside the US are the same ones defending the Iranian regime now” writes Stanley.
Delurking for a moment to clarify — if you read Raimondo’s antiwar.com columns from this week, you can clearly see that he isn’t “defending the Iranian regime now.” Quite the opposite — he is loudly supporting the protest movement, while calling on the U.S. government to stay out.
Ron Paul was the usual one “no” vote in the 405-1 chastisement of the Iranian government by the House of Representatives a few days ago — that’s not a defense of the Iranian regime, but a statement that the U.S. Congress has no business commenting on the internal affairs of another country.
The libertarian view stands in contrast to race-based collectivists like Duke who, from what I understand, do indeed have their own bizarre reasons for defending the Iranian regime.
redguard said
On Iran, China, and the critics of WWP
http://absent-cause.blogspot.com/2009/06/on-iran-china-and-critics-of-wwp.html
Stanley W. Rogouski said
Arthur is part of a small circle who troll here periodically to uphold U.S. imperialism and its military invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.
I thought he was just phrasing his point clumsily.
Stanley W. Rogouski said
Delurking for a moment to clarify — if you read Raimondo’s antiwar.com columns from this week, you can clearly see that he isn’t “defending the Iranian regime now.” Quite the opposite — he is loudly supporting the protest movement, while calling on the U.S. government to stay out.
Ooops. True. Raimondo doesn’t belong in that group.
Ron Paul on the other hand is a bit of a Christian theocrat (he’s radically anti-abortion) and does have a racist past (as well as a lot of racist followers). And yet he’s certainly “anti-imperialist” to some degree.
Libertarian Lurker said
I wouldn’t describe him as a “Christian theocrat” — within the context of the Republican primary field last year, don’t you think that fits Huckabee more? In terms of abortion, he is personally pro-life, but sees it as an issue that shouldn’t be decided on a national level. His views on abortion stem from his overall belief in a radically decentralized political system and most of his pro-choice libertarian supporters (myself included) agree with him on that. As far as racist followers…as someone who was very active in the grassroots of his campaign last year, I never once met any white power types. Our biggest problem in terms of people with questionable agendas getting involved tended to be the 9/11 Truth conspiracy people, not racists.
Anyway — not trying to hijack the thread here! Just making sure libertarians are distinguished from “the far right” on this issue — most support the Iranian protesters and oppose both the regime there as well as past, present, and potential future meddling by the U.S.
Stanley W. Rogouski said
Well, I brought up Paul, Raimondo and Paul Craig Roberts because I saw the point that was being made about David Duke but I thought it was something of a cheap shot.
I wanted to point out some American political figures who are “anti-imperialist” but essentially reactionary as far as domestic politics go.
I actually liked Ron Paul in the Fall of 2007 (when Ahmadinejad came to speak at Columbia) and the hysteria about Iran was at a fever pitch (especially in New York). Paul seemed like the only major politician dissenting from the saber rattling.
I certainly wouldn’t want to live under his vision of what America would look like.
Libertarian Lurker said
Fair enough! And I wouldn’t want to live in Great Leap Forward era China. :-) But, yes, Ron Paul often is, as you put it, “the only major politician dissenting from the saber rattling.” Similarly, I usually appreciate and respect communists (like the ones on this site) who seem to be more consistently anti-imperialist than many on the more mainstream left.